Intellectuals often think they know it all.>

13 year old physicist, on God.

So what does he make God?

Energy!!

But mainstream cosmology tells us that is not the case. It tells us that the universe began to exist a finite time ago. So we have an eternal cause, God, but a finite effect, the universe. This means that God existed sans the universe.

This implies that God decided to create the universe at some time, and this leads us to a personal cause, not an impersonal one.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "BIG PAWN"]
[Black "Baal_Adrammelech"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo ""]
[BlackElo ""]
[ECO ""]
[CurrentPosition "

click for larger view

"]

But I would like to keep this forum either quiet or with reasonable discussion shorn of the sheer arrogance and rudeness displayed by some recent overly nationalistic Trumpeters that recently posted here to enlighten us heathens.>

He would like to not deal with my arguments because he can't, so he puts me on his <INTOLERANCE LIST>. Stand up the the libs, they have no way to fight back. He deletes my posts because he has no answers and doesn't want egg on his face.

For someone who likes to finagle fine points of argument, you can be awfully opportunistic in your interpretation of events.

I deleted your posts and banned you from my forum because you're an insulting individual who needs to wipe his feet before he comes into a house, not before he leaves the house. Twice.

Bad manners chum will get you banned every time.

Your arguments are nonsense and they are being addressed by other interlocutors on my forum (including myself) who are arguing from both sides.

I have no problems with argument, just with insults and bad manners.

<Twinlark> has the NERVE to come to my forum and post when he's banned me from his!

That shows that this is really just about personality and tolerance. I have much tolerance and he has none. I have zero people on my ignore list and <twinlark> has me on his.

Now he's here pretending (how else to safe face?) that he deleted my posts because (get this) they weren't nice and polite!

Of course we know this is an excuse and he's lying because he doesn't hold himself to this standard.

<Twinlark: Some of us don't like to see you making an idiot of yourself, nor acting the obnoxious prat.> Kenneth S Rogoff (kibitz #210842)

So where does that leave us?

It means that his "not being polite" excuse is a lie that he doesn't live up to himself, further exposing him as a hypocrite as if banning me from posting on his forum (intolerance) but posting on mine wasn't enough, and that the real problem was that he couldn't respond satisfactorily to my posts.

You're an America hater posing as a BS intellectual, so puffed up and full of yourself, putting on airs as your M.O. with <Visy Ann America Hater>.

I don't like to just quote bible verses.>

Me neither.

<It means nothing to me, personally.>

OK, not sure why you added that. I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on it.

<No one knows what the quotes mean.>

Excuse me? I know what it means.

<Just think about it for a second. >

I thought about it for a lot more than a second, off and on for many many years.

As do I

<and I've seen and heard Christian dogma for years.>

As have I. Longer than you.

<I have also seen that most Christians don't experience a change in spirit. >

I've seen that first-hand too.

My point with all this is not to get into a game of "one-upmanship", but to point out that you aren't the only one with experience and knowledge in such matters.

<Once the spirit changes, you do not change back. >

I never went backwards anyway. I never said I went back to the way I was. I don't even know if a person who *isn't* born again can go back to who they were ten years ago or 5 years ago or 40 years ago.

I never claimed to be or even remotely implied it. I told you these things because you asked me how I could comment on your situation if I wasn't you.

<I never said I went back to the way I was. I don't even know if a person who *isn't* born again can go back to who they were ten years ago or 5 years ago or 40 years ago.

Life changes us all, to a greater or lesser degree. Quitting the Church after 13 years doesn't mean I went back to being the person I was 13 years earlier. >

That's broadening the concept of going back. This is not about going back in general to what we were in life and so on.

This is about a spiritual change, a reversal from being born of God to being unborn of God, and it is only that specifically.

A person born of God does not "fall away". What they fall away from is the fake stuff that doesn't matter, like going to church, tithing, lifting up holy hands, going to bible study, saying your prayers and so on. Well, those things do matter, but people think "that's it". That's "being a Christian" and when they don't do that stuff anymore they've fallen away.

That isn't true.>

I could have used another word, I agree. But I'm glad we agree.

When I say "fake stuff", what I really mean is that there are people that do all those things but never come to know God, yet if you ask them if they are Christians they will say yes.

To be a Christian one must follow Christ, and when you follow Christ you find your way back to the Father in heaven. However, unless one is born again then he will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, if you do all that other Christian stuff but are not born of God, then you are not going to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It's for this reason that I called that stuff "fake". I guess what I really mean is that if you think that stuff makes you a Christian then you're wrong, yet, many people in church do exactly that. They go to church on Sunday, confess Jesus as their lord and savior, and their lives never change. They made an intellectual change but not a spiritual one.

That's very good, I might use it in the future.>

This is about a spiritual change, a reversal from being born of God to being unborn of God, and it is only that specifically. >

Ah, you clever fellow. Yes it is about spiritual change. And here basically you've opened a can of worms and decided to find out if I want to spread it on the table and deal with it.

You've outlined your position:

<This is not about going back in general to what we were in life and so on.>

So now your worm can is about "what is the spiritual aspect of life and what isn't?" And I have no desire to try to shape or influence your opinion on that.

So I will just state my view that the spirit is inextricably intertwined with the life.

So, we disagree. I say YES, it IS "about going back in general to what we were in life and so on." Because that would indee be a spiritual journey backwards, just as life is a spiritual journey forwards.

You can't escape it, born again or not.

Now, I know that is the case. No matter how much you object.

And of course, you can come right back and use my argument as well, and say that you know you are right, no matter how much I object.

I never claimed to be or even remotely implied it. I told you these things because you asked me how I could comment on your situation if I wasn't you. >

I was just pointing out that your justification, the reason you think you can comment with certainty on such a thing, isn't really a justification.

And the reason it isn't is because you don't have some exceptional knowledge about a given situation that only you can possess.

No. It's still really very simple.

It's about not being able to "fall away" once one is born of God.

What I'm saying in all this, is that if one believes they have fallen away from God, then they never knew God in the first place.

The natural reaction is that someone says they went to church, read the bible, lifted up holy hands and so forth, but now they've fallen away, so who I am to speak?

And the reason it isn't is because you don't have some exceptional knowledge about a given situation that only you can possess.>

And I don't need exceptional knowledge to make these observations, and, to the point, I don't need to be you and have your direct experience to comment rightfully either.

Just as I can tell a guy it's wrong to beat his wife, even though he asks me "are you married?" or "Are you in my position?"

It doesn't matter.

<So, we disagree. I say YES, it IS "about going back in general to what we were in life and so on." Because that would indee be a spiritual journey backwards, just as life is a spiritual journey forwards.>

No, you are wrong about this and I am right. We cannot agree to disagree.

I will demonstrate simply.

<Going back in life> - this would include being the exact same age you were before and that's not possible, nor does it fit into this discussion.

<Being Unborn of God> - this is what we are talking about. The idea that you can be born of God and no born of God is irrespective of how old you are or anything else. It's about your spiritual <nature>.

So the two are completely separate and you can discuss the second one without discussing the first, making the topic easy and wide open for debate.

It seems that <big pawn> has direct experience of 'be still..'.

The changes that happen when we practice being still are permanent. One has to experience that.

Perhaps , <thegoodanarchist> has not practiced being still. And he is trying to understand it at intellectual level. I don't how far he can understand at intellectual level without at the same time practicing being still and see for himself the changes that take place.

Let us say one is rageaholoc. Therapy will work for that. One has to understand mechanism of one's mind and thoughts. If one stops at just that , it will benefit but only at much shallow level. If one practices being still at the same time , the changes will take place at much , much deeper level . one has to experience all this by practicing being still.

It hurts me a lot to say all this but at least this once <big pawn> is right and speaking with the clarity of a person who has direct experience of being still.

What <big pawn> is saying tellies with what David godman is saying.

True . once you have gotten in touch with timeless and grace (which are always already omnipresent but our emotions block them. Just like sun rays reach some part of forest and blocked in some parts even though are present everywhere), you know it for good.