In the same way, for all people? No. You've alread admitted as much in that you appeal to a special portion being given to Peter's successors. Mt. 28:19-20 is again spoken to the 11. I've seen some disagreement over the implications of that, but other places will tell us the Spirit is given through all ages. I just think not in the same way.

<It's not like the Holy Spirit just hung around until the New Testament was written and then decided, "Well, okay, I've got you started, but from here on in you're on your own"?!>

In terms of revelation, that is what happened.

<The apostles are the foundation of the Church which has been protected and guided by the Holy Spirit and will be until the Second Coming. See also John 14:25-26 and Luke 10:16>

So why is there just one Pope in charge and not a council of 12?

<Regarding Matthew 16:17-19 Jesus confirms Peter as the leader of His CHURCH which clearly means the community of believers who will continue Christ's work after his death and resurrection. So in turn when Peter died, his leadership of Christ's Church was passed onto Linus.>

Assumes your conclusion. Did Jesus just forget to mention that special dispensation given to Peter would pass on to someone else, <and none of the other apostles>?

< This is confirmed by all the early church records and historians. >

And you got quickly to "The RCC says the RCC is right." Quit speaking in vague terms. Where are the specific contemperaneious statements for each and every claimed successor of Jesus?

<Then from Linus to Anacletus to Clement etc etc. Hence the Catholic Church maintains the deposit of faith passed on from the beginning. The idea that this apostolic faith should end with Peter's death and then after that it's a "free-for-all" is patently absurd!>

It's absurd you're assuming a conclusion. And the devil is in the details. Where is the contemperaneous evidence?

<By the middle ages, abuses within the clerical hierarchy necessitated reform, which was already underway by reformers within the Catholic Church, but discontent with certain practices which had nothing to do with the apostolic faith, allowed some dissenters to claim that they had the 'truth' and so everybody should follow them from now on. These people have been popping up ever since with each one claiming to have received some 'divine revelation' which enable him to correctly interpret some obscure passage from the Bible which nobody has ever before understood!>

Who's to say they're wrong? I mean, they can appeal to their church writings, can't they? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, isn't it? The LDS and RCC in fact have stunningly similar arguments for the truth of their beliefs.

<As far as Peter being the supreme head of the Church, Paul was indeed aware of it as is evident in the Acts of the Apostles and his own letters. That didn't stop Paul from criticising Peter when he felt it necessary, but <there is no question in Paul's mind that Peter was the head of the Church.>>

<opt: So you don't believe a person is saved by faith in Jesus? How then?>

A believing and penitent individual must be immersed for the forgiveness of sins. That is how a person is saved according to the conditions of the New Testament.

<Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.>

<opt: Exactly what I've been saying! >

And doesn't that sort of sound like the RCC to you? Does the RCC forbid marriage? Yes, to some people. Does the RCC forbid eating meats? Yes, to some, at some times. Did Paul identify <those very things> as signs of a group that has departed the faith? Even if you reject that claim, surely you must realize this passage is saying that today's true church can become tomorrow's apostate church of demons. And yet you appeal blithely to history as if nothing wrong could have happened in the meantime.

Color me shocked.>

The truth can resolve disagreements, but only if the hearer accepts the truth, and often times this is impossible for them to do because they are blind to it. The truth to them sounds like nonsense.

When a person's spirit is out of order, presenting the truth does no good. They need to find it for themselves and the only way for this to happen is to get to know yourself through reflection, identify where your pride is and get rid of it, making way for God.

I don't think arguing with people will help to achieve this.

The RCC continues to publish encyclicals because the problems encountered by the Church in 1st century Palestine differ from the problems encountered throughout the world in the 21st century.

Jesus promised His Holy Spirit to guide His Church until the end of time and so for all its faults and failings we know that God would never abandon His Church.

The Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15) clearly shows Peter in charge which Paul acknowledges.

The pastoral epistles (1&2 Timothy and Titus) were written to oppose the Gnostic heresy current at the time.

<OCF> I don't have the time or even the expertise to comprehensively answer all your objections, so I will ask you to consider this...

I belong to the one holy catholic and apostolic church which was started by Jesus Christ and passed onto His apostles with Peter at the head, and which has been guided by the Holy Spirit ever since in accordance with the promise of Jesus Himself, and is the largest church by far in the world today.

My brother in Christ <OhioChessFan> belongs to a splinter church which believes the universe is only 6,000 years old and that Easter and Christmas should not be celebrated.

Now don't misunderstand me, I don't mean any disrepect to any other Christian community, but it is essential that we view the differing positions in this discussion in their proper perspective.

You seem to have read one or two passages in the Bible and without understanding them have gone off half-cocked and joined some obscure little fundamentalist church.

1. Not one of us is holy
2. We should call no man "Father" (for one is your Father, he who is in heaven)

Only God deserves our prayer yet Catholics pray to saints and to Mary, elevating them to God.

Also, only God can forgive sins but Catholics seek forgiveness from other men instead of just God.

I see a Christian as someone that prays to God and says, "Holy Father in heaven, please forgive me for my sins"

But Catholics say "Holy Father" to the Pope and ask forgiveness from him and priests.

For these reason I can't be a Catholic. I've heard Catholics try to justify and rationalize these things but to me it all sounds extremely ad hoc, like listening to Mormons.

<saving>

Jesus said that unless you are born again, you won't go to heaven. So going up to the altar in Church and confessing Christ as your Lord and Savior is not enough because that's not the same as being born again. As we agreed a few weeks ago, many people do that and go to church every Sunday but they never receive a renewed mind and continue to have messed up families, a sinful life, anger, resentment, bad relationships and so on.

It seems to me that you can't do anything to be born again either. Being born the first time around, you have no part in it whatsoever and if that is the analogy we are given it seems that the second time around we won't have a part in it either.

Being born again means we have the mind of Christ and become a child of God and instead of Satan's spirit in us we have God's spirit in us.

I think a lot of people think they are saved and they're not. They are deceived and the church doesn't help much because much of it has gone astray. People go on sinning and they think that they are a child of God.

*shakes head*

Umm ... may I ask where you got your information regarding the Catholic Church from?

Could you provide some brief background details as to your own religious upbringing and what Christian Church you currently belong to?

Just so I can get a handle on where you're coming from?

shortly followed by..

<You seem to have read one or two passages in the Bible and without understanding them have gone off half-cocked and joined some obscure little fundamentalist church.>

WARNING! TOXIC! WARNING! TOXIC! WARNING!

< <+++> Hate Mail <+++> >

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<Dec-14-16 Colonel Mortimer: <optimal play> <Now don't misunderstand me, I don't mean any disrepect to any other Christian community>

shortly followed by..

<You seem to have read one or two passages in the Bible and without understanding them have gone off half-cocked and joined some obscure little fundamentalist church.>

Yep, no disrespect there!>

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*The above post has been quarantined to prevent contamination with the present discussion*

Sure, I'm happy to share that. I don't feel it's too private or anything.

My grandmothers and great grandmothers were Catholic and even my mother was until she was about 21 (I think she told me that). My father and grandfathers weren't very religious at all. I think they are skeptics at heart.

Then, the grandmothers and my own mother stopped going to Catholic Church and went to Protestant churches instead. We went to the First Baptist Church but that church split in two. Half the congregation left and started another Church that was also First Baptist but they called it First Baptist Fundamentalist and the one we stayed at was called, I think, First Baptist Charismatic.

I haven't attended Church regularly since I was a teenager and I don't go now either.

They taught us in our church that John 3:16 was the basically the whole deal. If you confessed Jesus as your Lord and Savior and asked forgiveness for your sins, and believed that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, then you were saved from that point forward. You would strive to be sanctified and live more and more in the ways of God as best you can, praying to God for forgiveness along the way, and because of Jesus' sacrifice, you would be forgiven.

They did baptisms at my church and had communion as well. We had a Pastor, a choir, deacons and piano and organ music. We started with hymn singing, then some church business and information and then the sermon.

I was bored to tears and couldn't wait to be old enough to not have to go. I believed in God but disliked the boredom of church in a huge way.

I did used to spend time reading and thinking about the bible at home though and I even used to study it with my grandmother who lived next door. I was into Revelations because it was so interesting and I also enjoyed trying to draw an image of Ezekiel's vision.

From time to time I would read from Genesis to Judges or so and think about what God was like.

When I got older I stopped reading the bible altogether but then started back up again in my 20s. At that point I found my favorite book was proverbs. The wisdom in Proverbs blew me away and I learned a lot about myself from reading that book.

All along, as far as I was concerned, there was no point in studying the new testament because I was already a believer. I'd heard it all a million times before but all I cared about what the main issue; John 3:16.

Over the last 4 or 5 years I've come to see the bible and Christianity in a new way. I've come to realize that I believed a lot of things because other people told me that's what the bible meant, or that is what this or that verse means.

Over the last number of years, I've come to read the bible again, for the first time, as it were, and to see if I really understand what I'm reading and get away from everyone else telling me what the bible means. I've learned to put my very active and very critical, intellectual mindset away and just let things be revealed to me in silence. I had never done this before as I always intellectualized every little detail, as I do in all my debates here at cg.

I recall you previously mentioned that Revelations used to be your favourite book and now it's Proverbs.

My favourite book used to be Ecclesiastes and now it's Mark.

Anyway, I don't want to pry, but I wonder if your mother and grandmothers stopped going to the Catholic Church and began attending Protestant Services because of doctrinal or pastoral matters?

Do you know the reason for the schism at your local Baptist Church? Again, was it doctrinal or pastoral?

If you don't attend Church now, in what way do you experience being part of a Christian community?

So your boredom at church services was with the First Baptist Charismatic? Did you experience any other denominational church services before giving it away?

In reading the Bible again over the past few years, without assistance from commentaries or 'everyone else telling you what the bible means' how have you interpreted difficult or obscure passages? If a bible verse is not revealed to you in silence, do you seek clarification in scholarly articles?

How does removing your pride when reading the Bible help you to relate with other Christians who may interpret the Bible differently?

Then you should have responded to them one by one. I have had the same experience with Catholic defenders hundreds of times.

<<OCF> I don't have the time or even the expertise to comprehensively answer all your objections, so I will ask you to consider this...>

But you know I'm wrong. Got it. Proverbs 18:17 NIV In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines.

<I belong to the one holy catholic and apostolic church which was started by Jesus Christ and passed onto His apostles with Peter at the head, and which has been guided by the Holy Spirit ever since in accordance with the promise of Jesus Himself, and is the largest church by far in the world today.>

I don't agree and have specified why. You are unable to defend your position. But you know I'm wrong.

<My brother in Christ <OhioChessFan> belongs to a splinter church which believes the universe is only 6,000 years old and that Easter and Christmas should not be celebrated.>

Assuming your conclusion. You're quite unabashed in telling me I'm wrong when you admittedly can't defend what you're saying.

<Now don't misunderstand me, I don't mean any disrepect to any other Christian community, but it is essential that we view the differing positions in this discussion in their proper perspective.>

"Don't get me wrong, but I'm right. Just don't ask me to prove it."

<You seem to have read one or two passages in the Bible and without understanding them have gone off half-cocked and joined some obscure little fundamentalist church.>

I read the Bible cover to cover every year. Anyway, you're pretty confident in telling me I'm wrong when you can't defend your position.

<You're not the first Catholic to have done that and you won't be the last, but if you were prepared to honestly re-examine the issues you are concerned about I'm sure your 'shell-shock' would subside and you would gain a new and deeper understanding of Scripture and Tradition within the Church.>

This was said to all of us.

If the Bible is not the Word of God, then we don't have the Word of God. That would be true poverty.

There is much to be said for Mere Christianity.

Truth has value. But the assorted churches disagree on what the truth is, as we disagree. <optimal play> can't convince us to be Catholic, and I certainly can't convince him not to be.

Meanwhile, I don't believe the universal Church, in all its squabbling denominations, has ever faced more deadly enemies than it does today: deadly because now they resort to seduction instead of force, and throw us into an arena with worldly wisdom instead of lions. And our own pride works to their advantage.

Certainly God will do everything He has said He will do; but until He's done, we'll have a rough ride of it.

"I'm so much wiser than those wretched fundamentalists because I *don't* believe the earth is only 6,000 years old."

"I'm wiser than those deluded liberals because I *don't* believe the earth is umpteen zillion years old."

I don't know how to resolve this. But I do know that utopian secular humanism is gobbling up our children, classrooms at a time.

Even Solomon, in the end, couldn't follow the wisdom that God gave him, but ruined his kingdom by his folly.

Hillary Clinton said that core beliefs of Christianity "need to be changed" to accommodate abortion and the other moral aberrations of this present age. And all the powers of this fallen world are working very hard to do just that.

Hillary Clinton said that core beliefs of Christianity "need to be changed" to accommodate abortion and the other moral aberrations of this present age.>

You see, what fundamentalists do is 'nitpick'!

They select certain passages, like for instance 1 Timothy 4:1-3 and take it completely out of context.

If you're genuinely interested in understanding what that passage really means then just check out this short explanation...

http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...

Fundamentalists like <OCF> think they've stumbled across some revelation which nobody has ever noticed before.

Every single word of the Bible has been pored over for almost 2,000 years but some people are so puffed up with pride that they think they know better than everybody else and that they're the only ones who can properly interpret Scripture.

These people create division in the Church which is totally opposed to the teaching of Christ.

"I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought."

- 1 Corinthians 1:10

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

- Ephesians 4:11-13

<OCF> Please see what Jesus says here...

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever — the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

- John 14:15-17

<OP: It's not like the Holy Spirit just hung around until the New Testament was written and then decided, "Well, okay, I've got you started, but from here on in you're on your own"?!>

<OCF: In terms of revelation, that is what happened.>

Wrong <OCF>!

Jesus Himself promises the Holy Spirit to be with those who love Him FOREVER!

<playground player: ... We would do well to remember that we live now in a very dangerous period of history.>

Yes, you are correct!

The disunity of Christ's Church is a scandal and it may be that the forces of evil arrayed against us today comprising of extreme left-wing secularism and militant Islam have been permitted to rise by the Lord as a response to this quarrelling and discord.

Well, it used to be my favorite but these days I find myself reading the gospel of John a whole lot.

<Anyway, I don't want to pry, but I wonder if your mother and grandmothers stopped going to the Catholic Church and began attending Protestant Services because of doctrinal or pastoral matters?>

Doctrinal but also the way church was conducted too. The Catholic Church taught that you didn't know if you were going to heaven or hell it depended on if you did more good things or bad things. The Protestant church taught that you are saved by faith and grace alone.

Plus, in the Catholic church they didn't really talk about much in the bible where as in the Protestant church they had the bible open the whole time and they felt like they were finally learning something.

They started attending bible studies and discussing scripture openly and deeply. They came to the realization that the bible was at odds with what the RCC taught.

They told me they were shocked.

<Do you know the reason for the schism at your local Baptist Church? Again, was it doctrinal or pastoral?>

Some members wanted to lift up "holy hands" and speak in tongues and all that while the others were what they called "fundamentalists". The "fundamentalists" left and started a church down the road.

<If you don't attend Church now, in what way do you experience being part of a Christian community?>

My friends and family are almost all Christians and I immerse myself in Christian studies often.

<So your boredom at church services was with the First Baptist Charismatic? Did you experience any other denominational church services before giving it away?>

Yes, I went to other churches but found them all very boring.

These days I sometimes go to youtube and look for sermons to listen to. I find some of them very interesting and some are just so so. I am more curious now about what some verses really mean than I was when I was a kid. Back then I just took what the preacher said as correct and that was that.

Now I see that most people that go to church show no evidence of a renewed mind and continue to go on sinning, telling themselves and everyone else they are saved. I noticed in church that they read too much of the bible. They should study one verse and see how that applies to everything and see what implications it entails.

For instance, you could study "take every thought captive" for weeks on end. There's much to learn from this one verse and the reason it was given to us. I've found that if you ask Christians if they understand a verse, like that one, they will say yes and then tell you what the preacher or priest told them. But if you ask a few more questions and dig into it, they can't explain anything really and they've not been aware that they don't know what they thought they knew.

<In reading the Bible again over the past few years, without assistance from commentaries or 'everyone else telling you what the bible means' how have you interpreted difficult or obscure passages?>

I am aware of what some people think of said passages so I can't really reflect in perfect isolation. Also, when I do seek clarification I find myself listening to different perspectives. All seem reasonable until you hear the next one.

I've not tried to interpret anything difficult but rather the easy ones that I thought I understood. I reflect on whatever catches my mind and try not to parse it to death with my intellect.

<How does removing your pride when reading the Bible help you to relate with other Christians who may interpret the Bible differently?>

I'm not sure if it has any bearing at all on how other Christians relate to me or me to them.

Pride is something to understand in one's self. It takes different forms and prevents you from gaining wisdom and insight. Pride is what causes people to act against their own best judgment. Pride is what deceives us into sin. Pride puts the self before God.

You're confusing "know" with "trust".

"Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone"

http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...

<in the Catholic church they didn't really talk about much in the bible where as in the Protestant church they had the bible open the whole time and they felt like they were finally learning something.>

Yep, that would be right, however in recent years the Catholic Church has re-emphasised the importance of the Bible.

<They started attending bible studies and discussing scripture openly and deeply. They came to the realization that the bible was at odds with what the RCC taught. They told me they were shocked.>

So their Protestant bible study group said the RCC was wrong? Wow! I bet they were shocked! I mean, who would've thought that?! :O

<Some members wanted to lift up "holy hands" and speak in tongues and all that while the others were what they called "fundamentalists". The "fundamentalists" left and started a church down the road.>

Don't you reckon that's pretty silly to have a schism over?

You see, this is the problem with fundamentalist churches and it's why there are so many 'splinter' churches out there! Someone decides that a specific observance or practice or whatever doesn't coincide with their own particular interpretation of the Bible and so they just up and leave!

<"take every thought captive">

"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. You are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do."

- 2 Corinthians 10:5-7

"If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do."

A good lesson for us all, but especially for certain fundamentalists!

So their Protestant bible study group said the RCC was wrong? >

Don't you reckon that's pretty silly to have a schism over?>

I will refrain from judging that people because I was only maybe 3 years old. I don't remember it happening. The only reason I know is because I was told many years later.

Why twack the ears of fundamentalists when they are your brothers?

WARNING! TOXIC! WARNING! TOXIC! WARNING!

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Dec-15-16 Colonel Mortimer: Is this thread an advertisement for agnosticism? Where people get on with their lives instead of squabbling over things that can't be known?

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*The above post has been quarantined to prevent contamination with the present discussion*