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Oct-12-07
 | | Domdaniel: This -- Baburin vs Nunn, 2006 -- is one of my favorite [D78/79] games (mislabelled as a King's Indian, like many other examples). |
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Oct-12-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> ... and this -- J Kytoniemi vs A Kornev, 2007 -- is the recent game from Turkey. I think I misdirected you by adding an 'e' to Kornev. |
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Oct-12-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <vitreous humor> isn't actually very funny. Don't you think that's strange?
Mrs. Coot
Lancashire |
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Oct-12-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Unsolicited, unwarranted, and unlicensed <<<FROGSPAWN>>> Editorial: First, I should like to give a belated "huzzah" to <Dom's> editorial castigating the viewers of live Mexico Games for their penchant to outdo each other in publicly proclaiming they couldn't fathom any of the moves played in the tournament. We expect more chutzpah, if not hubris, from CG.com members, surely. Second, "whither the rook and pawn ending"?
More particularly, why are they so feared/hated?
I just played a long, tough game which devolved to a one rook and six pawns each endgame. I was growing dizzy trying to calculate what to do when the guy abruptly resigned. I think he just didn't want to do the work.
Why?
I must confess I was dreading the struggle myself-- it could have been another 30 moves easily and an hour or more to finish. But what is it about these endings that we abhor?
I crave chaos on the board-- sharp, unbalanced, mysterious positions. And yet when all I have is a rook and some pawns-- and, arguably, these endgames are the most sharp, unbalanced, and mysterious chess situations in existence-- I feel dread, unheimlich. Is it because I don't have any pieces that can move on diagonals and hop? Is it because it's plain hard work to calculate 9000 ply to figure out whether you should "guard that pawn" or "go for the open file and initiate a pawn gobbling with intervening checks slugfest"? I think R+P endgames are tough because they are the <quantum> chess scenario. The normal physical laws of the chess universe seem to break down--
sure, the "principles of the game" still seem to be in play-- Grab open files, centralize, seek opposition with your king, advance passers, etc.-- But are they REALLY IN PLAY?
I suspect not.
I suspect that there are no real guidelines to these endings except for either <mystical intuition> or the ability to calculate like <Zappa>. All those pawns are like so many little particles flying around, and the rooks are big particles smashing into smaller ones and producing "zygotes" if I'm not mistaken. All I know is that if you pretend to love chess-- then you had better embrace the R + P endgame. Sometimes chess is just plain hard work.
Let's face it.
If it were easy, everyone would do it.>
Well that's all for now.
Regards,
JFQ |
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Oct-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Jess> I consciously tried to overcome this, years ago, by reading the classic tome 'Rook Endings' by Levenfish and Smyslov. Mysteriously, I got better at knight endings but made no improvement in the rook variety. If I say any more about endings I'll start babbling about Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual again... c'est magnifique mais ce n'est pas la peur... |
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Oct-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Jess> I finally consulted a timezone chart to see where we all stand in the temporal world. It seems that, from here, Korea is 8 hours in one direction and Vancouver is 8 hours in the other. So I'm midway between where you are and where you was. I still don't know which is which, however.
Since I rarely know what time it is here, how could I know the time anywhere else? Hark! The crack of noon approaches... |
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Oct-13-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Ha!
"noon" is a conspiracy.
Time zones are illusory. Really it's the "same time" everywhere at once. If you start thinking about time zones, you will end up "in the middle" without knowing when you are, really. Kind of like <Sweeny> stuck up in a tree <halfway between Heaven and Hell> in <At Swim Two Birds>. I have never gotten this image out of my mind. It didn't help that I read the book 300 times. Bloody Nagopaleen.
Also, this is his from <The Third Policeman>: "I hit him with the shovel until my arms grew tired." Had a way with words, he did.
Regards,
JFQ |
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| Oct-13-07 | | achieve: <Dom> I'm sure Jyrki Kytoniemi is a fine fellow- and I assume he fully deserves his 2200+ ELO -- but why ON EARTH didn't he play <14. d5>? Wasn't the position begging for it? I really enjoyed examining this game, because I enjoy the positional maneuvering, in the transition to the endgame, that I like in games I play, especially against an engine... But since I'm not too bright, can you tell me why 40.Bf6? was played? I would have played Bd6 immediately... 63...h4 was very nice, but isn't the position after 68.Ke5 (in stead of the text Be7), a draw? Considering the opposite Color Bishops? (DIAPHRAGM)
 click for larger viewBut a great finish by Kornev! (and yes, you badly misdirected me) Aloha, the Vaganian endgame was a gem, though I think he missed a quick execution somewhere around move 41 (from memory as I examined it yesterday) - for a gxf6+ would have created a complete collapse of the Black position, IMO. The crack of dawn/noon
hehe, you cracked me up (at 13:40 CET), yet again, Dom! |
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| Oct-13-07 | | achieve: <Aloha, the Vaganian endgame was a gem, though I think he missed a quick execution somewhere around move 41> Sorry, that was move 43 -- 43 fxg6+ Kxg6 44 Kd6!! was what I meant. |
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Oct-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <achieve> Re opposite colour bishops, or BOOC as some say... In general, as long as Rooks (or other pieces, but especially rooks) remain on the board, opposite-colour bishops are not drawish. In fact the R+B situation actively favours the 'attacking' side. You can see this at work in this game when Kornev avoids the rook exchange. I know that I found several possible improvements ... but I don't have them to hand right now. I'll dig them out and take a look at your suggestions. |
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Oct-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> Yep, it begs for 14.d5 all right -- I can't understand why he didn't play it. I analyzed two main lines: 14.d5 b4 15.Nc4 Qc7 16.Bf4 Qb7 17.dxe6 bxc3 18.exf7+ Rxf7 19.bxc3 and
14.d5 cxd5 15.exd5 Bd7 16.Nxd7 Nxd7 17.Nxb5
Both of which leave White much better. White has other options too, but I can't find significant improvements for Black. On the other hand, the line he *did* play is extremely interesting. At first glance 15.b4 looks like a mistake, but it's actually an excellent pawn sacrifice (which he prepared with 14.a3). 20.a4 (instead of 20.f5) gives White an excellent game: 20.a4 b4 21.Nxc4 Bxc4 22.Qxc4 bxc3 23.e5, or 20.a4 Nxe5 21.axb5 Qb4 22.fxe5 cxb5 23.Qe3 Back in the game line, Black could have improved with 21...Rd2 (instead of 21...gxf5 22.Qh5 Rd2) which forces the white queen to a more passive square like e1/f1/f3, as 21...Qg4 22.Rxf2 fxe6 23.Rxg2+ is disastrous. I think 33.Bxd5 is a mistake -- maybe caused by the BOOC Delusion (optimistically hoping for a rook exchange?) But 40.Bf6 is good -- aiming for Rg8-h8 and a draw (plus mate threats). It's interesting that both kings are in trouble despite the reduced material. That's another consequence of the Rook + opposite bishop configuration -- each side attacks on their own colour complex. However, Fritz agrees with you about preferring 40.Bd6. More later... |
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| Oct-13-07 | | achieve: <In fact the R+B situation actively favours the 'attacking' side.> I remember you saying that to someone, (but forgot the context) -- sounds very true, depending on the square the pawn Queens on... I'll get back to your lines tomorrow.
Analysing and exchanging thoughts and variations feels very comfortable -- maybe the amount of kibitzers is what I have some trouble with... (GMT - game) In general I marvel in a combined effort in analysis... ...more than anything.
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Oct-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> I quite agree. Two or three or five Frogspawnish persons looking at a position is fun. And often instructive. While the Timmergame forum is, in a word, hellish. It's partly as you say, a function of small manageable numbers. And we know one another here, understand humour, won't be insulted, don't take umbrage. Much of the Timmerforum seems to consist of people quoting vast wodges of previous posts, and then having a hissy fit for reasons I often find mysterious. Interesting phrase 'hissy fit'. It seems to be a recent arrival in English -- and 'hissy' is almost never used in any other context. One wouldn't say "hey - a hissy snake is poisonous", I think. So 'hissy fit' is probably lifted direct from Danish 'hyssig fytte' (I'm not sure of the spelling, but the meaning and pronunciation are similar to the English.) I've been having a long look at the ending after your 68.Kxe5. It's definitely a better move, but I reckon black should win anyway. Here's one amusing line that I found by letting Fritz go to 18-ply: 68.Kxe5 Rd3 69.Rf5 Bd5 70.Kf4 Rf3+ 71.Ke5 h3 72.Kxd5 h2 73.Rh5 Rf5+ 74.Rxf5 h1(Q)+ 75.Ke5 ... which I think Black should win, though it could be a slow process. Obviously there are other ways to proceed. I spent most of my own time looking at 68...Rh1 rather than ...Rd3. One possible line goes: 68.Kxe5 Rh1 69.Kf4 Be6 70.Rb2 Bd7 71.Rd2 Rf1+ 72.Kg3 Rg1+ 73.Kh2 Ra1 74.Bd8 b4 75.Rb2 Be3 76.Bb6 (because 76.Rxb4? loses, eg 76...Re2+ 77.Kg3 Rg2+ 78.Kf3 Bc6+ 79.Ke3 h2 etc.) Overall, these lines seem winnable for black, but white can put up stronger resistance than in the game. Perhaps Jyrki refrained from playing 68.Kxe5 under the assumption he could take the pawn anytime; or maybe he had the idea of using it to shield his king from checks. Either way, as the game shows, it led to a rapid collapse after ...Be7. I'd *much* rather analyze with you and the gang here than with that unruly mob of prickly cretins you-know-where. I prefer pure chess positions to all that angst, rage, competitiveness and testosterone. Some of them are good people. The ensemble is not. |
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Oct-13-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <ensembles> are important. I'm sporting a frightful <ensemble> at the moment, as I just woke up. Regards,
JFQ |
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Oct-13-07
 | | Domdaniel: G'day, Jess... good to see you up and about...
I heard a guy on the radio recently -- pseudoscientific journalistic waffle -- he was talking about vitamins and was meant to say 'promotes vitality' ... but said 'promotes virility' instead. Hasty correction followed before stock in viagra falls. Anyway, love to chat, but I can't hang around. Time is universal but it's 04:00am or so here, and my cellular ensemble wants its beauty sleep. "What a cute appendix ... look at those fit mitochondria go ..." Yes, my brain's asleep already. Intense session with bishops of opposite colours. Just like the Anglicans and their Equatorial homophobic wing? Bon nuit, ma reine... a demain. |
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| Oct-14-07 | | achieve: <Dom> Nice work!
Just to establish a Frogspawn houserule - is it not done to abbreviate 'instead of'
with iso or i.o. ?
Very nice and complex line you gave with 14.d5 b4 15.Nc4 Qc7 16.Bf4 Qb7
17.dxe6 bxc3 18.exf7+ Rxf7 19.bxc3 -- looks waterproof and indeed much better for White. 20.a4 (iso f5) would have been the consequent move for White - again I agree. Now I found a significant improvement for White in: 32.Rd2 (i.o. 32 Bb6) as it is important to
keep the N from d5 -- e.g. 32 Rd2 a5 33 Bh4 Kf8 34 Bg5 b4 35 axb4 axb4 but still Black has a good passer...
(Not sure if there are improvements..)
The move played 32.Bb6 allows Nd5 and I agree with you that 33.Bxd5 looks a small mistake
- as I feel that 33.Ba5 looks more comfortable, but advantage for Black 43.Rh2 looks unnecessary, as there is 43 g5 Rxh3 44 Kg4 axb5 and now, yes, Rxb5! .  click for larger viewLooks a tough win for Black there... Of course I had assistance from my beast, which evals this as 0.45 in favor of Black... Would be interesting to have your opinion on the above position - if Black still has sealistic winning chances there... More on Kxe5 coming up... |
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| Oct-14-07 | | achieve: <Dom> Your first line --<68.Kxe5 Rd3 69.Rf5 Bd5 70.Kf4 Rf3+ 71.Ke5 h3 72.Kxd5 h2 73.Rh5 Rf5+ 74.Rxf5 h1(Q)+ 75.Ke5 ... which I think Black should win, though it could be a slow process.> At the end of your line, my beast says:
 click for larger viewAfter 5:00 min eval +1.58 21-ply
75...Qe1+ 76.Kf4 Qf1+ 77.Ke4 Qe2+
78.Be3 Qxg4+ 79.Rf4 Qd7 80.Bd4 b4
81.Rf2 Qe6+ 82.Kd3 (34.832.912) 118 Very tough line/ position to judge...
(BTW What those last two numbers mean I haven't got a clue) |
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| Oct-14-07 | | achieve: <Dom>-<Interesting phrase 'hissy fit'. It seems to be a recent arrival in English -- and 'hissy' is almost never used in any other context. One wouldn't say "hey - a hissy snake is poisonous", I think. So 'hissy fit' is probably lifted direct from Danish 'hyssig fytte'> I found this:
<Generally, hissy fits are considered childish and are therefore reserved for divas and children.We rarely use the expression about men, because it comes from the word hysteria (a psychological illness), which comes from hustera, the Latin word for womb. Back in the day, it was believed that women had mental problems because of their wombs, whereas we now know that most of women's problems come from spending too much time around men.> heh Source - http://www.slangcity.com/email_arch... Agreed, I prefer the atmosphere overhere, as I do not feel comfortable in loud crowds, in real life, too. Probably I carried that feeling to the GMT game, as far as posting there, as well. BUT I did vote yesterday! |
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Oct-14-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Well you guys have inspired me. I actually started writing down the moves in my games again and I finally played one I'm proud of enough to offer it for analysis. I sacced my Rook in the opening for a <pipe dream> that came through. I was inspired by going through many <Kasparov Sicilians>, understanding very little except for some themes that kept repeating-- he rarely plays either side of a Sicilian without saccing for position. Real sacs, not the kind where you've calculated in advance that you get the material back or an objectively winning position by force. Another theme hammered home in K's own analysis of his games is that pawns on the 6th or 7th rank can become as strong as the traditional <heavy artillery pieces>. Stronger even, sometimes. So I decided to test it out-- my first WHOLLY speculative postional sacrifice of a major piece (rook). AND IT WORKED!!
I'm sure it was unsound objectively, and that the engines could find a refutation of my insolence. But my opponent couldn't.
Heh.
This is the most exciting game I've played since August when I got away with saccing my Queen for a Knight, Bishop, and attack on an open King. AWHOOGA.
Can I post the game for you guys to analyze?
Regards,
JFQ |
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| Oct-14-07 | | achieve: Hi <Jess> I would LOVE you to post your ROOK sac game ASAP!! (I will be away in 75 minutes or so.. 18:00 your time?) |
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| Oct-14-07 | | achieve: <Dom> I'll get deeper into the 68.Kxe5 endgame later, as I have posted only my comp's eval and moves- and take a closer look at your 2nd (Rh1) line as well, later today. |
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Oct-14-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Jess> *Please* post your game, or any of your games: the <Frog Cabal> will be enthralled. IMO [sic], it's always a good idea to write down the score of your games, even quick and casual ones. I've even scribbled down the moves of quick games in pubs, or reconstructed them afterwards. One purpose of keeping games is to have an overview of what you're doing right and wrong -- as in any statistical or scientific exercise, the more raw data the better. And casual games may show a recurring error more readily than serious games.
You also get to relive your greatest hits, which is highly pleasurable. Didja know that Pride was considered the *worst* of the Seven Deadly Sins, way eviller than Lust, Sloth, Gluttony and the rest? Clearly aimed to keep the poor folk in their place... 'Fornicate, peasants, if you must, but don't ever think you're special...' An Inquisitor (Torc O'Mada) speaks:
"Self-esteem, is it? You'll be letting off plenty of Selfy Steam when G-d boils you in Hull for all eternity..." Back to game scores. When you've amassed a collection of these, you can scan for patterns. See how you do with different openings, types of game, endings, whatever. Look for weaknesses and try to mend them. Compare black and white results. And so on. However. I've 'mislaid' about 70% of my old tournament game scores. Why the Hull didn't I keep copies? Idiocy. I haven't always practiced what I preach. (It's boring -- both preaching and practicing are individually boring, but at least practice pays off eventually.) I've been doing better with black than white since my 'comeback' -- which suggests that I need to rejig my White openings... or maybe that Black suits my passive-aggressive character. It wasn't always thus: I used to lose regularly with black against 1.e4. Maybe I'm finally getting to comprehend <The French>, which requires an initiation period of decades. *ADVERT* -- coming soon from <Frogspawn Publications>: "Allez les Grenouilles - et Vite!" par Chevalier Dom.
A unique <speed course> on 1...e6 -- master the French in *only* ten years. Remember the Hundred Years War? Know how long it lasted? Exactement. |
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Oct-14-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> I'll respond to your analysis later, but first there's an important point I forgot to mention. BOOC endings (with the rooks gone) can be drawn even with a three pawn difference. But there's an important principle: the bishop needs to restrain the pawns along a single diagonal. When two pawns are far apart this isn't possible, and the bishop is overloaded. I reached a position something like this in one line of analysis:  click for larger viewWhite has just blundered by exchanging rooks on c6. Now it's a simple win for Black -- who doesn't even need his Bishop, as two such pawns alone will win (as long as the defending king is out of reach). This is a simple version, but it's a recurring theme in the ending. For this reason I think black should hold onto the b-pawn -- exchanging it for a white g- or h-pawn is almost never a good idea. I often wonder how good computers are at recalibrating their objectives. In our 'start' position for this ending (move 68), White has rook, bishop and pawn -- and can justifiably 'play for a win' despite being a pawn down. But let's assume, hypothetically, that all such active strategies fail eventually, and white will lose if he plays like this. Therefore he should *immediately* look for ways to draw. One possibility is to exchange one pair of pawns, then sacrifice the bishop for black's last pawn, reaching a pawnless R+B vs R ending. This may be a theoretical win, but is very hard to win in practice. One GM game I saw recently finally reached a winning situation around move 120, after 48 moves of maneuvering. Although the win was forced, the 50-move rule kicked in before a capture or checkmate could intervene. A draw. I think Kurtz played one out recently with R+B and drew... not sure if it's the same game. More later ... let's analyse this random game to the death ... |
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Oct-14-07
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> "iso" and other 'breviations are kosher, as long as I understand 'em. And even if I don't, I like to learn new stuff. So anything goes. My pedantic streak means I don't much use them myself; and I dislike the cliched ones such as LOL and IMHO... I'd also make a distinction between SMS/texting (where they're necessary), emails (where they are sometimes useful), and posts here. If we can take the time and trouble to produce real chess analysis, why not real English too? But 'iso' is really more like a piece of chess notation: like or #. I think. |
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Oct-14-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Hmmm. Do you suppose <isolanis> feel <isolated>? It's a lonely world.
The world is 64 squares big.
Thanks for your advice encouragment and instructions <dominus>. And thanks for letting me post my game.
I won't do that until next weekend probably.
It's back to the Celt Mines tomorrow, I believe we're looking for bronze or witchhazel... I get confused sometimes. I've only replayed my game once and I want to analyze it before I post it for <expert> analysis. Acolytic Regards,
JFQ |
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