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Feb-13-07
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: Welcome all. It would be good to have comments on the Australian and New Zealand chess scenes. I am also interested in talking about the chess classics, and who was the greatest player of all time. |
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| Feb-13-07 | | Benzol: <Jonathan> In asking about who was the greatest player of all time you may have opened a door that can no longer be closed. :) My money for the greatest is on Emanuel Lasker BTW. His results over decades were just remarkable. |
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Feb-13-07
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: <Benzol> That's good, because it would mean that the forum might actually be used :) That is not a common choice, but the old chess writer and columnist Heinrich "Assiac" Fraenkel agreed. |
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| Feb-14-07 | | Archives: Hello my fellow Kiwis =)
In regards as to who is the greatest chess player...
Author Dimitrije Bjelica asked chess Grand Masters for their opinion about who the greatest player to grace God's green earth. Here is their replies....
<Mikhail Tal:>
For sure the strongest was Emanuel Lasker. He made impossible things happen behind the chess table. He was great tactician, he could win lost positions. <Mikhail Botvinnik:>
In my personal duels with world champions Capablanca made the strongest impression on me. Maybe because he had such a natural talent. <Tigran Petrosian:>
It's hard to say who is the best. There was a lot of giants in chess history who deserves this title, but is hard to compare them. Rubinstein's systems are still prevailing. He had great ideas. Maybe he is the best. <Igor Bondarevsky:>
For me it is Capablanca. When I begun to play chess I liked him the most and I still do. <Boris Spassky:>
The best is Alexander Alekhine because he is still unclear to me. <Robert James Fischer:>
Have to be Paul Morphy. I believe that he could win all matches still today. <Svetozar Gligoric:>
For me there is only one. Paul Morphy. Because he was in his time a class ahead of the rest. <Viktor Korchnoi:>
Lasker. He was fighting in a way that I don't understand. He used to win games in openings but he found moves behind the table. <Miguel Najdorf:>
He was great, unreachable Capablanca. He didn't care about chess, but he played better than all. <Bent Larsen:>
Best player of all times is Philidor, because he was ahead of his time more than anyone alse. <Borislav Ivkov:>
My answer is Alekhine, because he was the best.
<Lajos Portisch:>
This has to be Alekhine.
<Lev Polugaevsky>
First of all this has to be an alive Grand Master. To answer on this question I have to see not only games, but the Master at work. From living Masters this is Mikhail Botvinnik. <Laszlo Szabo:>
If you put all Grand Champions together it's hard to decide who is the best. I will vote for four of them: Alekhine, Lasker, Capablanca and Botvinnik |
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| Feb-14-07 | | Archives: <Dragoljub Ciric:>
Why a question like this? Fischer is the best player of all history. In modern chess who is tougher than from Capablanca and Alekhine times, Fisher is perfect player.<Ludek Pachman:>
The best is Wilhelm Steinitz, because he made a basics of modern chess, strategic chess. Also Capablanca, because he was something special. <Miroslav Filip:>
This is Capablanca - for many reasons.
<Larry Evans:>
For me this could be Fisher if he could control some of his emotions. <Robert Bern:>
The best is Lasker. because he was a great tactician, strong in defence and attack. He played good in all phases of the game. <Alberik O'Kelly:>
The biggest talent is Capablanca and most successful champions are Alekhine and Lasker. Those three are the best in chess history for me. <Arturo Pomar-Salamanca:>
The best was and still are Capablanca and Alekhine.
<Istvan Bilek:>
By best results it has to be Alekhine. He used to play like Tal plays today. They are the best Champions. <Georgi Tringov:>
Alekhine, because he has the best results.
<Fridrik Olafsson:>
Lasker was the most amazing person who played chess ever. He played against his opponent psychologically. Today the greatest is Fisher. He does not play against the opponent but he does play very good. He plays even better than Lasker. <Vlastimil Hort:>
When I look at Alekhine's games it seems to me that I see life. His games are reflections of life and that's why he is the best. <Aleksandar Matanovic:>
Alekhine is the meaning of chess history and the best player of all time. <Eduard Gufeld:>
That's Botvinnik, because he's been so long on the top level and he brings in chess some scientific elements. If chess is art and sport why do we measure only the sport element? I think that we have to measure both. That's why is Botvinnik the best. |
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| Feb-14-07 | | Archives: <Gedeon Barcza:>
That's Lasker, because he knew what is psychology in chess. He was fantastic tournament player and he play good in all phases of the game.<William Lombardi:>
The best is Lasker, because he was excellent psychologist, but most loved is Capablanca. <Milan Matulovic:>
Alekhine, because he played the best and quality of his games still isn't reach over. <Pal Benko:>
Lasker, because he played real fighting chess.
<Salomon Flohr:>
Alekhine, but why him, you will have to ask someone else. <Lubomir Kavalek:>
Alekhine gave the most to the chess game. He is the best with no competition. <Klaus Darga:>
Lasker, but I don't know why.
<Efim Geller:>
Botvinnik, because it is so hard to be genial in between such a great number of excelent players for so long. <Bruno Parma:>
That is Mikhail Tal.
<Wolfgang Unzicker:>
Probably have to be Lasker.
<Milko Bobocov:>
No one cross such a hard way as Boris Spassky. In Capablanca and Lasker times there wasn't so many great players. <Jan Hein Donner:>
There is only one and he is Lasker.
<Petar Trifunovic:>
Wilhelm Steinitz gave the most to the chess game. The best tournament players was Alekhine and Lasker all in their own era. It is hard to compare war ships from different times. <Alexey Suetin:>
Alekhine, because I like his great play.
<Vasily Smyslov:>
I learned chess on the games of Lasker, Capablanca and Alekhine that's why I vote for those three. <Oscar Panno:>
Capablanca and Lasker from history and from present time Bronstein and Tal, because they can win all when they are in top form. <David Bronstein:>
Because I answering on this question on Lasker's birth day I vote for him, but on other occasions I vote for Louis De la Bourdonnais because of beauty of his chess games. <Daniel Janovsky:>
Alekhine, because I've met him 1939 and I saw how he play. |
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| Feb-14-07 | | Archives: That is from a 1969 book, hence why all the people nominating Kasparov are missing. Also it was a non-english book, so I tried to clean up the english translation I found, but some of it still doesn't sound right. |
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Feb-14-07
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: That would explain the vote for Spassky, world champ at the time, and nothing about Karpov. |
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| Feb-14-07 | | Archives: I believe the <strongest> player of all time is Kasparov. (Due to the accumulation of chess knowledge and his domination over his follow GMs). But the <greatest> player? Depends exactly on what people mean by greatest. Does it mean the strongest player? The player who helped develop the game the most? There are many ways to determine the qualifications for the greatest player of all time. |
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Feb-14-07
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: OTOH, as Larsen says, Philidor was even more dominant. His nearest rivals had to take draw odds, and he was acknowledged #1 in the world for almost 50 years. Kasparov indeed has a number of claims, e.g. youngest world champ, long reign as top ACTIVE player, game quality, tournament domination. GM Keene also believes he was the most naturally talented in reply to my question on his forum. Karpov deserves to be regarded as one of the greatest since he was at the top for 10 years and #2 for about the same. There is hardly a PAIR in history that was so dominant. |
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Feb-14-07
 | | Richard Taylor: <Lasker> Is one I would also pick - among many - I once saw a tournament anlysis /assesment of him and he figured result wise as one of the best ever -he was also immensely talented - he has some characteristics of Fischer and others - he was more "balanced" as person than Fischer however and I feel he was also the greater player. His belief in the struggle is important. But there is Rubinstein and Kahn and Alekhine and Capa - but I aso see Botvinnik and Karpov there and Kasparov of course. Smyslov is up there. There are others of course. One cant ignore Botvinnik. Tal got ill too much and I don't think we saw thest of him and Korchnoi kind of missed the boat -but is/was a great player. Keres of course. |
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Feb-14-07
 | | Richard Taylor: Of course there may have many with great talent and potential we cant really consider as for various reasons -ilness or misfortune they didnt sustain the high level I think that was Tal's case - Fischer's case was a kind of mental illness. (Social-psycholgical) Fischer aslo put hismelf out by not facing Kasrparov -who I consider one of the greatest - Kasparov learnt by playing him! Gligoric is one of those who didn't "make it" who is a great player. Bronstein should also be considered...and Reshevsky. Philidor and Steiniz and Rubinstein - he was really the equal of Capablanca. Pillsbury? |
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Feb-14-07
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: Well thought out comments, all. Keep them coming! The wide respect for Lasker is notable. Tarrasch vs Lasker, 1908 featured a pawn sacrifice that impressed Capablanca with its uniqueness and profundity, and hard to beat today. Capa was also impressed that Lasker, even aged 68, was the only one at Nottingham 1936 who realized that Alekhine had fallen into a very deep trap by winning the exchange against him (Capablanca vs Alekhine, 1936), while all the other masters were racking their brains over where Alekhine supposedly went wrong later. Capablanca's great talent and low lifetime loss record puts him up among the greatest, I think. |
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| Feb-15-07 | | Archives: Bobby Fischer listed his top 10 in the magazine Chess Life in 1964. They were; Morphy
Staunton
Steinitz
Tarrasch
Tchigorin
Alekhine
Capablanca
Spassky
Tal
Reshevsky
Irving Chernev published the book Golden Dozen in 1974, in which he ranked his all-time top 12: 1. Capablanca
2. Alekhine
3. Lasker
4. Fischer
5. Botvinnik
6. Petrosian
7. Tal
8. Smyslov
9. Spassky
10. Bronstein
11. Rubinstein
12. Nimzowitsch |
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| Feb-15-07 | | percyblakeney: With Fischer's list it's hard to understand how Tarrasch, Chigorin and Reshevsky could be ahead of Lasker (Reshevsky ahead of Botvinnik is also dubious...). I think Chernev's list would look better with Steinitz somewhere on it, after all he did win every match he played for 32 years, Bronstein, Rubinstein and Nimzo can't compete with such results. |
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Feb-15-07
 | | Richard Taylor: Perhaps the line should go horizontally - ultimateley there is surely no ONE best player? Of course the discussion is interesting.
I need to take another look at the "positonal" players -Karpov/Rubinstein/Capablanca/Botvinnik I found I could learn from Fischer and Lasker, Tal and Alekhine - or more to the point - I would be inspired by them (mostly by Alekhine)- the exception is Karpov - now one year I got his (then basically complete) games and played many of them over - it gave me a great feel for chess positions and it helped me win many (or more) games - I would use the "feel" or positinal sense of the way Karpov played and get into good positions and then use that to go onto the attack or get into complicatios if need be - but I suppose the point is to have many games by a great player to model one's chess on (not just say a collection of the "best" games). |
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| Feb-15-07 | | Archives: <after all he did win every match he played for 32 years, Bronstein, Rubinstein and Nimzo can't compete with such results.> Well yea but they were up against tougher opposition than Stenintz, weren't they? Oh btw, Rubinstein never lost a single match he played (IIRC, he won them all except for one match against Salwe which was drawn). Just thought I would sneak in a little interesting fact about my fav player. ;) And also, IMO, Rubinstein produced chess closest to perfection, more so than any other player (Smyslov also springs to mind). But was he the greatest player ever? Hardly. Unfortunately, while producing technical masterpieces, he was also prone to blunders which marred many of his games. |
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| Feb-15-07 | | percyblakeney: <Well yea but they were up against tougher opposition than Stenintz, weren't they?> Indeed, and it could be argued that the current top ten consists of the ten strongest players ever. :-) What I like with Steinitz was that he played lots of matches against the strongest possible opposition, Chigorin twice, Zukertort twice, Blackburne several times, Gunsberg, Anderssen, and many others. He won all these matches until his 58th year, when he ran into Lasker, who some consider to be the greatest ever. |
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Feb-15-07
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: Lasker's copybook was somewhat blotted by his avoidance of matches with his strongest opposition. But his omission from Fischer's list is mystifying. Fischer even called him a "coffee-house player", which is hard to take seriously. I'm surprised that a 1974 book didn't list Karpov, who had already beaten Spassky convincingly. |
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| Feb-15-07 | | Benzol: <Jonathan> Lasker's tenure of the World Title may have been extended because of the First World War but I don't think he deliberately ducked anyone. Thoughts anyone. |
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| Feb-17-07 | | Archives: <Lasker's tenure of the World Title may have been extended because of the First World War but I don't think he deliberately ducked anyone. Thoughts anyone.> I don't think Lasker dodged anyone. The only people I can think of that should have had matches with him and didn't are Rubinstein and possibly Pillsbury (although I do not believe that Pillsbury would have actually provided much of a challenge to Lasker). There were serious negotiations underway for a Lasker-Rubinstein match, but sadly that got completely sidelined by WWI. Then after the War, Rubinstein had been surpassed (so to speak) by Capablanca. I can't help but wonder that if Lasker-Rubinstein did occur, who would have won? |
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Feb-17-07
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: All the same, he had very few matches during his 27-year tenure. The second match against Janowsky was a waste because it was such a mismatch. Tarrasch should have been much earlier when he was nearer his prime. A match with Capablanca might have been more of a struggle if he had not waited till 1921. Lasker was fortunate not to lose the match with Schlechter. Pillsbury had a lifetime level score against Lasker. But Lasker was a greater player than all of these apart from Capablanca. |
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| Feb-17-07 | | percyblakeney: I'm not sure if Lasker dodged opponents, but at the same time the fact that he didn't play Rubinstein, Pillsbury, Maroczy (or Capa earlier than 1921) makes his "rule" just a little less impressive in my opinion. Maybe he had beaten them, I think he would have, but it's not comparable to actually playing the strongest opponents and defeating them. Lasker didn't play any top three rated opponent if one goes by Chessmetrics, until he faced Capa in 1921 and lost 0-4. This was not a "normal" result between them, but at the same time Capablanca had wanted that match already ten years earlier, but Lasker demanded that he should keep the title also if he lost with a one-game margin and there was no match. Just the fact that Lasker could put up such conditions and pick Janowski as an opponent makes it harder to evaluate his reign. It was longer than Kasparov's, but it was 11 years between matches at two occasions, and he didn't have to play the strongest opponents to keep the title. Kasparov played in total 144 match games only against Karpov. |
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| Feb-17-07 | | Archives: For me there is 3 main requirements to regard someone as a candidate for the title of "greatest player ever". <1.Contribution to chess> e.g. Rubinstein, IMO, has contributed more to chess theory than any other player, ever. <2.Longevity>
e.g. Lasker was dominant over the rest of the top players for 20+ years, although it is controversial dominance seeing as he never seemed to play the top players (or when he did they were past their prime). <3.Psychological Stability> e.g. Kasparov has the strongest nerves of any player IMO. Other great players had stability but then lost it (Rubinstein and Huebner). |
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Feb-20-07
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: Thanx for all the comments about the greatest of all time. This topic is still wide open, but another topic is the widespread use of pseudo-mathematical tiebreaks. I accept that a playoff can be a pain for players and organisers, although rather like the idea of 5:4 minutes to White, draw odds for Black. Some will justify tiebreaks such as Sum of Opponents' Scores, on the grounds that some players meet stronger fields than others. But an obvious point is the players have no control of whom they play. And often there is a case of two very strong players drawing with each other and winning the rest. First. neither could have improved on 100% against the rest, so it’s unfair to penalise either for not meeting stronger players. Second, it’s likely that the tie would be broken because one 2200 played a 1400 player and the other a 1200 player in the first round, say. It’s very likely that the 1400 player will score much better than the 1200. But with all due respect to them, neither of them is likely to provide much opposition to either of the winners. So saying that the one who, by luck of the draw, played the 1400 player faced the ‘stronger’ field is largely meaningless. Maybe sometimes the SOS will produce a semi-reasonable indication of a stronger field. But many times (I would estimate, most times), it will be decided by the silly scenario described -- it happened with the 1980 Olympiad, where Hungary and Russia tied and then waited for the result on one of the middle boards to decide the winner. Since there’s no way of predicting which one, it becomes a lottery of whether the SOS will be meaningful in a given tournament. Thus it would be better to expunge such systems. A serious methodological weakness of SOS and related tiebreaks hasn’t been considered before to my knowledge, but seems obvious to me as a Ph.D. scientist. A Swiss tournament is theoretically pretty accurate for the top places, and less so for the minor places. Conversely a point here or there is doesn’t mean too much for the middle of the field and below. Therefore, an SOS tiebreak of the winners is calibrating the more accurate with the less accurate. It’s like a chemist using milligram-sensitive balances to find that two samples have equal weights, then trying to choose between them using bathroom scales! Such scientifically fallacious procedures have no place in chess. |
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