Do some "miracles" turn out to have a naturalistic explanation? Probably most of them.

How did Jesus Christ walk on water? Nobody knows. His ability to perform miracles is part of the proof that He is the Son of God. Nobody here is trying to force anyone else to believe in Him, but we will not back down from our belief.

Do some "miracles" turn out to have a naturalistic explanation? Probably most of them. >

<Actually, I don't have a problem with any scientist saying miracles are not his province.>

Perhaps I misunderstood you earlier when you said: <To rule out miracles a priori, or to insist that there is no such thing as the supernatural, seems to me a barrier to understanding. >

I understood that you were speaking in the context of natural science (which was the context of the discussion), but perhaps you were thinking of a wider context beyond science.

<As for calling Christ's Resurrection a fraud ...>

Although that's not a claim I would make, it is a conceivable explanation for some.

If someone chooses to believe it was a fraud, I don't see how it helps the cause of Christianity to get angry about it. Discuss it in a civil manner. Give your reasons and have respect for the other person's opinion. I would even advise being open to the possibility that you're wrong. However, if someone is going to get rude or arrogant, let it be the other person.

Some theologians asked him what could be inferred about the mind of the Creator from the works of His Creation:

"An inordinate fondness for beetles."

There are over 400,000 known species of beetles, which is about 40% of all known insect species.

And here is Haldane's explanation of his atheism.

Those Biologist are quite the breed, let me tell you...

Reading 1

Is 52:13—53:12

See, my servant shall prosper,

he shall be raised high and greatly exalted.

Even as many were amazed at him

so marred was his look beyond human semblance

and his appearance beyond that of the sons of man

so shall he startle many nations,

because of him kings shall stand speechless;

for those who have not been told shall see,

those who have not heard shall ponder it.

Who would believe what we have heard?

To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

He grew up like a sapling before him,

like a shoot from the parched earth;

there was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him,

nor appearance that would attract us to him.

He was spurned and avoided by people,

a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity,

one of those from whom people hide their faces,

spurned, and we held him in no esteem.

Yet it was our infirmities that he bore,

our sufferings that he endured,

while we thought of him as stricken,

as one smitten by God and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our offenses,

crushed for our sins;

upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole,

by his stripes we were healed.

We had all gone astray like sheep,

each following his own way;

but the LORD laid upon him

the guilt of us all.

Though he was harshly treated, he submitted

and opened not his mouth;

like a lamb led to the slaughter

or a sheep before the shearers,

he was silent and opened not his mouth.

Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away,

and who would have thought any more of his destiny?

When he was cut off from the land of the living,

and smitten for the sin of his people,

a grave was assigned him among the wicked

and a burial place with evildoers,

though he had done no wrong

nor spoken any falsehood.

But the LORD was pleased

to crush him in infirmity.

If he gives his life as an offering for sin,

he shall see his descendants in a long life,

and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him.

Because of his affliction

he shall see the light in fullness of days;

through his suffering, my servant shall justify many,

and their guilt he shall bear.

Therefore I will give him his portion among the great,

and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty,

because he surrendered himself to death

and was counted among the wicked;

and he shall take away the sins of many,

and win pardon for their offenses.

Ps 31:2, 6, 12-13, 15-16, 17, 25 Responsorial Psalm R. (Lk 23:46) Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.

In you, O LORD, I take refuge;

let me never be put to shame.

In your justice rescue me.

Into your hands I commend my spirit;

you will redeem me, O LORD, O faithful God.

R. Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.

For all my foes I am an object of reproach,

a laughingstock to my neighbors, and a dread to my friends;

they who see me abroad flee from me.

I am forgotten like the unremembered dead;

I am like a dish that is broken.

R. Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.

But my trust is in you, O LORD;

I say, “You are my God.

In your hands is my destiny; rescue me

from the clutches of my enemies and my persecutors.”

R. Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.

Let your face shine upon your servant;

save me in your kindness.

Take courage and be stouthearted,

all you who hope in the LORD.

R. Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.

Heb 4:14-16; 5:7-9 Reading 2 Brothers and sisters:

Since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens,

Jesus, the Son of God,

let us hold fast to our confession.

For we do not have a high priest

who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses,

but one who has similarly been tested in every way,

yet without sin.

So let us confidently approach the throne of grace

to receive mercy and to find grace for timely help.

In the days when Christ was in the flesh,

he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears

to the one who was able to save him from death,

and he was heard because of his reverence.

Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered;

and when he was made perfect,

<You Rang> I would rather not speak at all, than risk saying something that would impugn my own witness. That's why I was worried about losing my temper. As Sun Tzu said, "A general who loses his temper can be made a fool of."

I am aware that not everyone believes, as I believe, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and is the one and only Savior of mankind. I wish I knew how to convince people that this is so, but I don't.

However, knowing my limitations, I thought it best, yesterday, to just shut up for a while. When the emotions are engaged, reason can fly right out the window. When you feel yourself getting angry, it's usually a good idea to zip your lip--so that's what I did.

God understands people's limitations better than we understand them. God is much slower to anger than we are. Which is not to say that men insult Him with impunity!

But then your argument is no better than that of a Muslim who says to me:

<I presuppose the Qu'ran to be true, and a true revelation of Allah, and reason downward from there. If I were to try to presuppose that Christianity is also true, I would not be able to reason at all, by the law of non-contradiction. If I start throwing out the Qur'an, or even pieces of it, then something else becomes my god.>

<Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” And Saul said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” So Saul, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”>

Well, it flows both ways. I'm sure some scientists get riled up when they see science being attacked by religion in deceptive ways.

I give credit to science for standing on a "higher ground" in the religion vs. science battle:

- At least scientists have not subjected religionists to cruel persecution.

I remember when George Foreman got his butt handed to him by Jimmy Young in San Juan, and became ill in his dressing room. The events as told in Wiki:

<He was suffering from exhaustion and heatstroke and believed he had a near death experience. He claimed he found himself in a hellish, frightening place of nothingness and despair. He began to plead with God to help him. He explained that he sensed God asking him to change his life and ways. After this experience, Foreman became a born-again Christian, dedicating his life for the next decade to Christianity.>

to where there was a garden,

into which he and his disciples entered.

Judas his betrayer also knew the place,

because Jesus had often met there with his disciples.

So Judas got a band of soldiers and guards

from the chief priests and the Pharisees

and went there with lanterns, torches, and weapons.

Jesus, knowing everything that was going to happen to him,

went out and said to them, “Whom are you looking for?”

They answered him, “Jesus the Nazorean.”

He said to them, “I AM.”

Judas his betrayer was also with them.

When he said to them, “I AM, “

they turned away and fell to the ground.

So he again asked them,

“Whom are you looking for?”

They said, “Jesus the Nazorean.”

Jesus answered,

“I told you that I AM.

So if you are looking for me, let these men go.”

This was to fulfill what he had said,

“I have not lost any of those you gave me.”

Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it,

struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear.

The slave’s name was Malchus.

Jesus said to Peter,

“Put your sword into its scabbard.

Shall I not drink the cup that the Father gave me?”

So the band of soldiers, the tribune, and the Jewish guards seized Jesus,

bound him, and brought him to Annas first.

He was the father-in-law of Caiaphas,

who was high priest that year.

It was Caiaphas who had counseled the Jews

that it was better that one man should die rather than the people.

Simon Peter and another disciple followed Jesus.

Now the other disciple was known to the high priest,

and he entered the courtyard of the high priest with Jesus.

But Peter stood at the gate outside.

So the other disciple, the acquaintance of the high priest,

went out and spoke to the gatekeeper and brought Peter in.

Then the maid who was the gatekeeper said to Peter,

“You are not one of this man’s disciples, are you?”

He said, “I am not.”

Now the slaves and the guards were standing around a charcoal fire

that they had made, because it was cold,

and were warming themselves.

Peter was also standing there keeping warm.

The high priest questioned Jesus

about his disciples and about his doctrine.

Jesus answered him,

“I have spoken publicly to the world.

I have always taught in a synagogue

or in the temple area where all the Jews gather,

and in secret I have said nothing. Why ask me?

Ask those who heard me what I said to them.

They know what I said.”

When he had said this,

one of the temple guards standing there struck Jesus and said,

“Is this the way you answer the high priest?”

Jesus answered him,

“If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong;

but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?”

Then Annas sent him bound to Caiaphas the high priest.

Now Simon Peter was standing there keeping warm.

And they said to him,

“You are not one of his disciples, are you?”

He denied it and said,

“I am not.”

One of the slaves of the high priest,

a relative of the one whose ear Peter had cut off, said,

“Didn’t I see you in the garden with him?”

Again Peter denied it.

It was morning.

And they themselves did not enter the praetorium,

in order not to be defiled so that they could eat the Passover.

So Pilate came out to them and said,

“What charge do you bring against this man?”

They answered and said to him,

“If he were not a criminal,

we would not have handed him over to you.”

At this, Pilate said to them,

“Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.”

The Jews answered him,

“We do not have the right to execute anyone, “

in order that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled

that he said indicating the kind of death he would die.

So Pilate went back into the praetorium

and summoned Jesus and said to him,

“Are you the King of the Jews?”

Jesus answered,

“Do you say this on your own

or have others told you about me?”

Pilate answered,

“I am not a Jew, am I?

Your own nation and the chief priests handed you over to me.

What have you done?”

Jesus answered,

“My kingdom does not belong to this world.

If my kingdom did belong to this world,

my attendants would be fighting

to keep me from being handed over to the Jews.

But as it is, my kingdom is not here.”

So Pilate said to him,

“Then you are a king?”

Jesus answered,

“You say I am a king.

For this I was born and for this I came into the world,

to testify to the truth.

Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.”

Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

When he had said this,

he again went out to the Jews and said to them,

“I find no guilt in him.

But you have a custom that I release one prisoner to you at Passover.

Do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?”

They cried out again,

“Not this one but Barabbas!”

Now Barabbas was a revolutionary.

Then Pilate took Jesus and had him scourged.

And the soldiers wove a crown out of thorns and placed it on his head,

and clothed him in a purple cloak,

and they came to him and said,

“Hail, King of the Jews!”

And they struck him repeatedly.

Once more Pilate went out and said to them,

“Look, I am bringing him out to you,

so that you may know that I find no guilt in him.”

So Jesus came out,

wearing the crown of thorns and the purple cloak.

And he said to them, “Behold, the man!”

When the chief priests and the guards saw him they cried out,

“Crucify him, crucify him!”

Pilate said to them,

“Take him yourselves and crucify him.

I find no guilt in him.”

The Jews answered,

“We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die,

because he made himself the Son of God.”

Now when Pilate heard this statement,

he became even more afraid,

and went back into the praetorium and said to Jesus,

“Where are you from?”

Jesus did not answer him.

So Pilate said to him,

“Do you not speak to me?

Do you not know that I have power to release you

and I have power to crucify you?”

Jesus answered him,

“You would have no power over me

if it had not been given to you from above.

For this reason the one who handed me over to you

has the greater sin.”

Consequently, Pilate tried to release him; but the Jews cried out,

“If you release him, you are not a Friend of Caesar.

Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”

When Pilate heard these words he brought Jesus out

and seated him on the judge’s bench

in the place called Stone Pavement, in Hebrew, Gabbatha.

It was preparation day for Passover, and it was about noon.

And he said to the Jews,

“Behold, your king!”

They cried out,

“Take him away, take him away! Crucify him!”

Pilate said to them,

“Shall I crucify your king?”

The chief priests answered,

“We have no king but Caesar.”

Then he handed him over to them to be crucified.

So they took Jesus, and, carrying the cross himself,

he went out to what is called the Place of the Skull,

in Hebrew, Golgotha.

There they crucified him, and with him two others,

one on either side, with Jesus in the middle.

Pilate also had an inscription written and put on the cross.

It read,

“Jesus the Nazorean, the King of the Jews.”

Now many of the Jews read this inscription,

because the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city;

and it was written in Hebrew, Latin, and Greek.

So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate,

“Do not write ‘The King of the Jews,’

but that he said, ‘I am the King of the Jews’.”

Pilate answered,

they took his clothes and divided them into four shares,

a share for each soldier.

They also took his tunic, but the tunic was seamless,

woven in one piece from the top down.

So they said to one another,

“Let’s not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it will be, “

in order that the passage of Scripture might be fulfilled that says:

They divided my garments among them,

and for my vesture they cast lots.

This is what the soldiers did.

Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother

and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas,

and Mary of Magdala.

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved

he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.”

Then he said to the disciple,

“Behold, your mother.”

And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

After this, aware that everything was now finished,

in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled,

Jesus said, “I thirst.”

There was a vessel filled with common wine.

So they put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop

and put it up to his mouth.

When Jesus had taken the wine, he said,

“It is finished.”

And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit.

Here all kneel and pause for a short time.

Now since it was preparation day,

in order that the bodies might not remain on the cross on the sabbath,

for the sabbath day of that week was a solemn one,

the Jews asked Pilate that their legs be broken

and that they be taken down.

So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first

and then of the other one who was crucified with Jesus.

But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead,

they did not break his legs,

but one soldier thrust his lance into his side,

and immediately blood and water flowed out.

An eyewitness has testified, and his testimony is true;

he knows that he is speaking the truth,

so that you also may come to believe.

For this happened so that the Scripture passage might be fulfilled:

Not a bone of it will be broken.

And again another passage says:

They will look upon him whom they have pierced.

After this, Joseph of Arimathea,

secretly a disciple of Jesus for fear of the Jews,

asked Pilate if he could remove the body of Jesus.

And Pilate permitted it.

So he came and took his body.

Nicodemus, the one who had first come to him at night,

also came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes

weighing about one hundred pounds.

They took the body of Jesus

and bound it with burial cloths along with the spices,

according to the Jewish burial custom.

Now in the place where he had been crucified there was a garden,

and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had yet been buried.

So they laid Jesus there because of the Jewish preparation day;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...

I'm a little confused about this passage. Who is the disciple? At first I thought it refers to Mary of Magdala, who was a disciple and was favored by Jesus, but later it says Mary the Mother was taken into "his" home. So I guess it's someone who wasn't mentioned in the list of people who were there. Why didn't they name him? Or maybe the text was mistranslated and it actually said "her home".