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Jul-08-08 | | isemeria: Is it possible to sort games of a certain player according to the opening/ECO code? http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... It seems to me that there's only filtering by the result, but the order is always by the year. |
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Jul-08-08 | | kb2ct: The Shabalov-Shirov is a modern gambit. 19th century gambits kicked in a center pawn. 20 and 21st century gambits like the Benko and Shirov-Shabalov kick in a worthless rook pawn. After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Nd7 6. Qc2 Bd6 7. g4 h6 8. Bd2 Nxg4 9. Rg1 Nxh2 10. Nxh2 Bh2 11. Rxg7 Qh4 12. Qf3 Nothing prevents castling queenside and breaking in the center with Pe4 :0) |
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Jul-08-08 | | DanLanglois: <kb2ct>, 12. Qf3 is illegal. |
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Jul-08-08 | | truefriends: Think GMAN will try to improve on our game against GMYS. So if GMAN plays d4 we must try to deviate asap IMHO :-) |
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Jul-08-08 | | kb2ct: <DanLanglois: <kb2ct>, 12. Qf3 is illegal.> Sorry it is 11. Qf3
When you are a pawn down and the chess engines think you are a pawn up, you are almost always winning. :0)
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5.
e3 Bd6 6. g4 h6 7. Bd2 Nxg4 8. Rg1 Nxh2 9. Nxh2 Bxh2 10. Rxg7 Qh4 11. Qf3 |
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Jul-08-08 | | imag: <whatthefat: <imag> I'm not sure I understand. My point is precisely that 7.g4 may in fact be a weakening move that we can exploit as Black. The game you linked to is not in the Shirov-Shabalov Gambit - is it a faulty link?> Perhaps I wasn't clear. My post is about how engines think. I remember the only way I could beat Chessmaster3000 when I was young was to lock the center and to advance my pawns in front of computer's castled King. Why? Simply because engine's horizon effect didn't allow it to see the incoming attack. Then, when its King was exposed, Chessmaster was finally realizing that the mating/promotion threats were just too much to handle. Now look at the game Fritz vs E F Pecci, 2001. Of course this game is not Shabalov attack but it illustrates well my idea. After move 9, Fritz is probably very happy with his position. Remember that engine just calculate numbers, they have no intuition. No human would play 10.0-0. But Fritz ignores advanced Black pawns because he doesn't see the danger of two pawns supported by rooks destroying his Kingside. Of course engines are much better now but I'm still afraid that when we face 7.g4, engines at first will underestimate it. Only when White continue with g5,h4, 0-0-0 and Rg1 will they realize the danger, but it might be too late. Maybe I'm being pessimistic about it but as I said, we'll need every factor to be on our side in the GMAN game if we want to win it. |
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Jul-08-08 | | kb2ct: <imag: Simply because engine's horizon effect didn't allow it to see the incoming attack.> You are absolutely correct. The Shirov-Shabalov isn't really a gambit. It is an accellerated thematic attacking move masquerading as a gambit. If we play the Slav, we have to delay Pe6 :0)
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Jul-08-08 | | RookFile: <DanLangLois: 'Black actually has a plus score in this line'--really? well. 13. g3>
Dan, after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 Bd6 7. Be2 O-O 8. O-O dxc4 9. Bxc4 a6 10. Rd1 b5 11. Be2 Qc7 12. e4 e5 13. g3:  click for larger viewBlack plays ... Re8 and has no problems. Fritz 10 rates this as -0.01, meaning that black has fully equalized. The Opening Explorer for this position indicates that black is scoring a win 36 percent of the time, and 48 percent of the time, the game is drawn. |
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Jul-08-08 | | whatthefat: <imag>
Okay, I see what you meant now, thanks. Fair concern, but on the other hand, you don't get something for nothing as Black. So as I see it, there are two real philosophies to the opening as Black: 1) Play solidly to try to approach an equal (or very near equal) middlegame position. From here, a draw can be secured without much trouble, or Black can try to outplay White in the middlegame by complicating matters. 2) Mix it up in the opening, thereby providing both sides with greater winning chances. Still White has the opening edge in such systems, and objectively it will often even be slightly increased. But Black hopes to outplay the opponent in the complications. Of course, these are more opposite ends of a spectrum than rigid classifications, and most openings fit somewhere between. Allowing White to play 7.g4 will complicate the game, and presents risk to both sides as I see it. Consequently it also provides both sides with winning chances. Now I find 7...h6 a most interesting reply, since Black is willing to waste a whole opening tempo to fix White's weakness. Maybe it's a passing fad - as <kb2ct> thinks - but consider that since 2002 it's been tried in serious games by Ivanchuk, Karjakin, Gelfand, Kaidanov, Nakamura, and Shabalov himself, and in rapid or blindfold games by Leko, Anand, and Topalov. I wonder, is 7...h6 a cautious reply, developed out of fear of White's attacks over the years, or is it really a very ambitious move, shoring up the defences and planning to exploit White's overeagerness later on? Does anyone have a recent opening text with analysis of 7.g4 and 7...h6 ? |
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Jul-08-08 | | DanLanglois: <kb2ct: <DanLanglois: <kb2ct>, 12. Qf3 is illegal.> Sorry it is 11. Qf3 When you are a pawn down and the chess engines think you are a pawn up, you are almost always winning. :0) 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Bd6 6. g4 h6 7. Bd2 Nxg4 8. Rg1 Nxh2 9. Nxh2 Bxh2 10. Rxg7 Qh4 11. Qf3 > The line that you give is perhaps dead lost for Black--it's bad, as you say, but this is not the Shirov-Shabalov. I take it, furthermore, that you've withdrawn all your comments about the Shirov-Shabalov, as you've yet to look at the actual line. This includes the comment that 'if we play the Slav, we have to delay Pe6'. A comment, that could be taken to mean that you believe the Semi-Slav is refuted. Your credulity is noted. |
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Jul-08-08 | | DanLanglois: <whatthefat: Does anyone have a recent opening text with analysis of 7.g4 and 7...h6 ?> It would surely be worth looking at 'Play the Semi-Slav' by David Vigorito, Brand spanking new 2008, and fabulous reviews. No doubt, GMT would have a copy as well. However, I truly feel that our own analysis would render it obsolete, page-by-page. we can do analysis. There isn't some kind of better analysis than we can do, as far as I can imagine--it just takes setting our gears in motion. We have resources that some IM dude doesn't have (w/respect). A book, even good one, would be a rather superficial treatment for our needs/by our standards. |
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Jul-08-08 | | kwid: Jul-08-08 < DanLanglois: <whatthefat: Does anyone have a recent opening text with analysis of 7.g4 >
I am not expert in this line, but just looking at g4 triggers in me dxc4/e5 Something like this:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 Bd6 7. g4 dxc4 8. Bxc4 e5 9. g5 Nd5 10. Ne4 (10. Qe4 f5 11. gxf6 N7xf6 12. Qc2 exd4 13. Nxd4 Be5 14. Nf3 Bxc3+ 15. bxc3 O-O 16. Ng5 h6 17. Nf3 Ng4 18. Be2 Qf6) (10. Bd2 N7b6 11. Bxd5 cxd5 12. dxe5 Bb8 13. Rg1 O-O 14. O-O-O Be6 15. e4 Qc8 16. Be3 dxe4 17. Nxe4 Bg4 18. Rg3 Bxf3 19. Rxf3 Bxe5 20. Qxc8 Raxc8+ 21. Kb1 Rfd8) 10... Bc7 11. Bd2 exd4 12. Nxd4 Ne5 13. Be2 O-O 14. O-O-O Bb6 15. Rhg1 Ng6 1/2-1/2 |
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Jul-08-08 | | kwid: 9.Bd2 or h3 lines are also looking ok
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 Bd6 7. g4 dxc4 8. Bxc4 e5 9. Bd2 (9. h3 exd4 10. Nxd4 Nb6 11. Bd3 h5 12. g5 Nfd5 13. g6 O-O 14. gxf7+
Rxf7 15. Bg6 Rf8 16. Ne4 Be5 17. Bd2 Bxd4 18. exd4 Nf4 19. Bxf4 Rxf4 20. O-O-O Qd5 21. Nc3 Qg5 22. h4 Qh6) 9... exd4 10. Nxd4 Ne5 11. Be2
(11. g5 Nxc4 12. gxf6 Qxf6 13. Ne4 Qg6 14. O-O-O Nxd2 15. Nxd6+ Qxd6 16. Rxd2 O-O) 11... Nexg4 12. h3 Ne5 13. O-O-O
(13. f4 Ng6 14. O-O-O O-O 15. Kb1 Qe7 16. f5 Ne5 17. Rhg1 Rd8 18. e4 Bc5) 13... O-O 14. f4 Ng6 15. f5 (15. h4 Bxf4 16. h5 Ne7 17. Rhg1
Bh2 18. Rg2 Qc7 19. h6 g6 20. Nf3 Bg3)
15... Nh4 16. e4 Be5 17. Nb3 Ng2 18. Bf3
(18. Bh6 Qb6 19. Rhg1 Bf4+ 20. Bxf4 Nxf4 21. Qd2 Qf2 22. Rdf1 Nxe2+ 23. Nxe2 Qh4 24. e5 Nd5) 18... Nf4
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Jul-08-08 | | kb2ct: <DanLanglois:
The line that you give is perhaps dead lost for Black--it's bad, as you say, but this is not the Shirov-Shabalov.>Dan, what I posted was an archetypal
Shirov-Shabalov with the exception that black allowed Qf3 [Event "Russia Team Championship"] [Site "Sochi RUS"] [Date "2004.04.28"] [EventDate "2004.04.20"] [Round "9"] [Result "1-0"] [White "Alexey Dreev"] [Black "Jakov Geller"] [ECO "D45"] [WhiteElo "2689"] [BlackElo "2489"] [PlyCount "69"] 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 c6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 Bd6 7. g4 Nxg4 8. Rg1 Nxh2 9. Nxh2 Bxh2 10. Rxg7 Qf6 11. Rg2 Bd6 12. Bd2 b6 13. e4 Bf4 14. cxd5 exd5 15. exd5 Bxd2+ 16. Qxd2 Bb7 17. O-O-O cxd5 18. Re1+ Kd8 19. Rg5 Rc8 20. Bh3 Rc7 21. Qe3 Bc6 22. Rf5 Qh4 23. Rxf7 Kc8 24. Rg1 h6 25. Rg6 Qh5 26. Rgg7 Rd8 27. Qg3 b5 28. Rf5 Qe8 29. Kd2 Kb7 30. Qd6 Rdc8 31. Rff7 b4 32. Qxb4+ Ka8 33. Qe7 Qh8 34. Qd6 Nb6 35. Qxc6+ 1-0 |
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Jul-08-08 | | whatthefat: Here are some games that look critical to the 7.g4 dxc4 8.Bxc4 e5 line: Radjabov vs Shirov, 2004
Aronian vs P Smirnov, 2004
Harikrishna vs Dreev, 2004
Aronian vs D Gormally, 2005
A Adly vs Harikrishna, 2006
Shariyazdanov vs Dreev, 2006 |
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Jul-08-08 | | kwid: A look at 7...h6 lines indicates rough water ahead
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 Bd6 7. g4 h6 8. Rg1 e5 9. cxd5 cxd5 10. Nb5 Bb8 11. g5 hxg5 12. Nxg5 O-O (12... e4 13. Bd2 Nf8
(13...Nb6 14. Qc5 Rxh2 15. Bb4 Rh8 16. Rc1 Bf5 17. Rh1) 14. Rc1 Bf5 15. Bb4 Rxh2
( 15... a6 16. Nc7+)
16. Qc7 Bxc7 17. Rxc7 Rh5 18. Rxb7)
13. Bd2 a6 14. Nc3 Nb6 15. dxe5 Bxe5 16. f4 Bd6 17. O-O-O Qe7 (17... Bd7 18. e4 dxe4 19. Ngxe4 Bf5 20. Bd3 Bxe4 21. Nxe4 Nfd5 22. Nxd6 Qxd6 23. Bh7+ Kh8 24. Kb1 Rfe8 25. Qd3) 18. Kb1 Rd8 19. Bd3 Bc5 20. Rg2 |
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Jul-08-08 | | whatthefat: <kwid: A look at 7...h6 lines indicates rough water ahead 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 e6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 Bd6 7. g4 h6 8. Rg1 e5 9. cxd5 cxd5 10. Nb5 Bb8 11. g5 hxg5 12. Nxg5 O-O> What do you think of 8...Qe7 (e.g., 9.Bd2 dxc4 10.Bxc4 b5 in J Henrichsen vs A Matthiesen, 2006)? |
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Jul-09-08 | | Xenon Oxide: Has anyone here thought of playing the Slav Defense against GM Arno Nickel? I think it is more aggressive than the Semi-Slav, as it brings in an immediate <...e5> instead of <...e6-e5>, and there is much less theory there, so the World has more chance to come up with an innovative idea. The lesser amount of theory also means that white has less "draw at will" lines that leads to stale positions. Furthermore, it is sound, aggressive, and the complications suits our team. |
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Jul-09-08 | | kb2ct: <DanLanglois:> 7...h6. makes no difference. The damage is done and white has got in Pg4 I don't think Pe6 is playable in CC.
Maybe Pa6 and dxc4.
My system with black against Pd4 is to play a Bogo-Indian to get rid of the black square bishops then use Queens Indian patterns. Unfortunately it leads to a 0.00 very quickly with no winning chances for either side. Symmetry and absolute equality. :0)
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Jul-09-08 | | DanLanglois: <Xenon Oxide: Has anyone here thought of playing the Slav Defense against GM Arno Nickel? I think it is more aggressive than the Semi-Slav, as it brings in an immediate <...e5> instead of <...e6-e5>, and there is much less theory there, so the World has more chance to come up with an innovative idea. The lesser amount of theory also means that white has less "draw at will" lines that leads to stale positions. Furthermore, it is sound, aggressive, and the complications suits our team> More aggressive, and less theory? Is that a contradiction in terms? I think so. Furthermore, it is 'aggressive'. Yeah, I already got that part :-) The Slav, eh? hmm..
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Jul-09-08 | | whatthefat: <kb2ct: <DanLanglois:> 7...h6. makes no difference. The damage is done and white has got in Pg4 I don't think Pe6 is playable in CC.>
Are you honestly saying that you think 7.g4 is a refutation of the Semi-Slav? |
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Jul-09-08 | | Xenon Oxide: <More aggressive, and less theory? Is that a contradiction in terms?> Not necessarily, I think. The Benoni is much more aggressive than the Queen's Indian, yet the Queen's Indian is far more theoretical. |
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Jul-09-08 | | Xenon Oxide: Well, I don't think anyone could or should say that a single line is a refutation of an entire system used by all the top-GMs for more than 50 years at the top level. If things were that simple, you'd be able to beat the likes of Topalov, Anand etc. quite easily. |
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Jul-09-08 | | DanLanglois: the theory on the Queens Indian might be enormous, but it's all a bunch of equal boring drawn lines, is my overstated point, here. the Queens Indian is not 'inherently theoretical', because the lines are not forced (contrast to, say, the Benoni). does this notion fly? |
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Jul-09-08 | | Xenon Oxide: <DangLanglois> What do you mean by theoretical? |
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