ARCHIVED POSTS
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 923 OF 1118 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Jun-12-16
 | | chessgames.com: <Knight13: I think a few clarifications would be helpful: What is the difference between an argument and a discussion?> This has nothing to do with CG policy, but if you really want to know my opinion, I think the difference in word usage is mostly the tone of the language used and the emotional investment in the topic. <Where are non-premium members supposed to argue/discuss the differences other than here?> For staters this is NOT the place to argue or debate. This page exists to help members with problems and to call issues to our attention. <Even between two premium members, maybe they want you to see their arguments/discussions so they post in this forum instead of in their own chess forums.> I witness that as well, but they ought not. <Also, what kind of arguments or discussions are and aren't allowed in this forum (besides the obvious ones)> It's easier to say what is allowed here. It should be something either useful for an individual ("Help, I am a premium member and I locked myself out!") or to the membership as a whole ("Is there some way to easily look up a player by their player ID?") |
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Jun-12-16
| | chessgames.com: <As it is, nobody's addressed <sonia91>'s extremely valid requests for more tournament pages (for the Rapport-Navara match, the Russia-China match, the Capablanca Memorial etc. etc.), people are complaining submitted games aren't being processed, the Source tag still hasn't been introduced to my knowledge, editors and other site helpers are distracted, the Chessgames Member Support Forum has become a battlezone...> SQ is right on point. I have nothing to say on the topic of Site tags for the time being until those tournaments and a few other small points are addressed. At least with the Source tag we're all in full agreement so there is nothing left to do but actually doing it. |
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Jun-12-16
 | | Domdaniel: Uh, Rapport and Navara are playing a match? That's great - two of the most interesting players around. And their games, let's face it, will be more relevant and even historically more important than any of our differences here. |
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Jun-12-16
| | chessgames.com: I think this is what SQ was referring to: Cez Trophy (2016) and Rapport won. It's not on the homepage but I flipped on the kibitzing if you want to discuss it. |
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| Jun-12-16 | | zanzibar: <<crawfb5> - <The proper basic datum for Portable <Game> Notation is the game, not the event.> <DomD> An obvious, but brilliant, point.> Errh, might I point out that if this were indeed true the Event tag would be superfluous? * * * * *
Who you gonna call?
Let's ask the people who know PGN best...
e.g. TWIC
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/r... (Also http://theweekinchess.com/html/twic...)
And ChessBase
http://en.chessbase.com/portals/4/f... http://en.chessbase.com/post/linare... (Too bad the CBlight link on that page is defunct)
* * * * *
The Site tag might need improving, but all the tournament games share the same tag: <Morelia/Linares MEX/ESP> |
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| Jun-12-16 | | zanzibar: < MissScarlett: <or, about 0.7%, clearly a very small number.> So let's deal with the other 99.3% of games first, and come back to this topic later when we're all dead.> This is like building a road between two cities separated by a river, and not bothering to cover the 1% of the roadway needed by building a bridge. |
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| Jun-12-16 | | zanzibar: <This needs to stop, and I apologize for contributing to it with this post, which will be my last for now on this topic.> It appears you were never really interested in discussing the matter, would be an alternate interpretation. What are you going to do when I bring up the subject of names again? Another clear case where <CG> is far from standard/best practice. |
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| Jun-12-16 | | zanzibar: It's not fair to take all these shots, and then say the discussion must end because it's a waste of time - sorry but it's not. |
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Jun-12-16
| | chessgames.com: I never said that this <discussion must end> — I just suggested that we table it for the time being. Once we settle some other issues we'll come back to this one, I promise. |
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| Jun-12-16 | | zanzibar: OK, <chessgames>, that's fair and reasonable... |
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Jun-13-16
 | | Tabanus: <MissScarlett: I already explained what's required. Event and EventDate tags alone are sufficient to do the job.> So what's the problem. SCID can't read those two? |
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Jun-13-16
 | | kingscrusher: Hi Chessgames.com
I heard the sad news about IM Danny Kopec today.
I was hoping to video annotate a notable game of his in his own "Kopec system". I found these two games which perhaps should be considered for his "notable games" but they are not in this site's game database as well as other online DBs. I found these two in Chessbase but show the real dangers of the "Kopec system" : [Event "Queen City op 13th"]
[Site "Manchester"]
[Date "1989.02.18"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Kopec, Danny"]
[Black "Ivanov, Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B50"]
[WhiteElo "2516"]
[BlackElo "2678"]
[PlyCount "75"]
[EventDate "1989.02.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "5"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[SourceTitle "EXT 2005"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.11.15"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bd3 Nc6 4. c3 g6 5. O-O Bg7 6. Bc2 e5 7. d3 Nge7 8. h3 h6
9. Be3 f5 10. exf5 Bxf5 11. Nbd2 b6 12. Nh4 Be6 13. Ba4 Rc8 14. Bb3 d5 15. f4
exf4 16. Bxf4 O-O 17. Qe2 Qd7 18. Rae1 Bf7 19. Nhf3 Rce8 20. Qf2 g5 21. Be5 Bg6
22. Qg3 b5 23. Bxg7 Kxg7 24. h4 c4 25. hxg5 cxb3 26. gxh6+ Kh7 27. Ng5+ Kh8 28.
Nf7+ Kh7 29. Rf6 Rg8 30. Nf3 Bxf7 31. Rxf7+ Kh8 32. Qf4 Rg6 33. Ne5 Qe6 34.
Nxg6+ Qxg6 35. Rg7 Qh5 36. Qf6 Nf5 37. Rg5+ Kh7 38. Qxf5+ 1-0 [Event "Queen City op 14th"]
[Site "Manchester"]
[Date "1990.02.17"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Kopec, Danny"]
[Black "Ivanov, Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B50"]
[WhiteElo "2516"]
[BlackElo "2678"]
[PlyCount "89"]
[EventDate "1990.02.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "5"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[SourceTitle "EXT 2005"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2004.11.15"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Bd3 Nc6 4. c3 g6 5. Bc2 Bg7 6. O-O e5 7. d3 Nge7 8. h3 h6
9. Be3 f5 10. exf5 gxf5 11. Nh4 Be6 12. Bb3 Bxb3 13. axb3 O-O 14. Na3 f4 15.
Bd2 Nf5 16. Nf3 d5 17. Re1 Qd7 18. c4 Rad8 19. Nb5 dxc4 20. dxc4 Nfd4 21. Nbxd4
exd4 22. Re4 d3 23. Rxf4 Rxf4 24. Bxf4 Bxb2 25. Ra2 Bg7 26. Be3 b6 27. Ne1 Nb4
28. Rd2 Qf5 29. g4 Qe4 30. g5 hxg5 31. Qh5 Rd6 32. Nf3 Rh6 33. Qg4 Qxg4+ 34.
hxg4 Rg6 35. Bxg5 a6 36. Kf1 b5 37. Be7 bxc4 38. bxc4 Rc6 39. Bd8 Bc3 40. Rd1
Re6 41. Ng5 Re5 42. Bf6 Rxg5 43. Bxg5 a5 44. Be3 a4 45. Bxc5 1-0 Is it possible/legal to use these two games to add to the database here?! And maybe update his notable games for these two ?! Cheers, K |
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Jun-13-16
| | chessgames.com: <sad news about IM Danny Kopec today> Oh no, now I just hear it from you. That is very sad. Sure, I'll put those games in right away. |
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Jun-13-16
| | Domdaniel: I'm also very sorry to hear about Danny Kopec - only today I was looking at one of his books. As far as I remember, the Kopec System in the Sicilian, 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bd3 - with the idea of playing c3 and Bc2, with something like a King's Indian Attack, but with White's LSB on c2 rather than g2 - is very playable. There was a good analysis by Kopec in Chess Magazine, sometime in the late 1970s. |
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| Jun-13-16 | | zanzibar: <Why not Event/Date?> <Tab> I think <MissS> might be leaning on his monkey-wrench a little, given that we cycled through it before. Let's be generous, and just assume he wasn't paying attention... It's a valid question, and I'll write a blog post about it, maybe, someday, maybe. The short answer is this...
If you're completely in charge of the PGN, the Event tag alone is enough to specify a tournament. Just make each unique according to your system. You don't even need the year - just put the year in the Event tag if you have to. Voila, Event tags the way the PGN standard intended. The trouble is... SCID and ChessBase, both, have to handle PGN collections that come from multiple sources, and not just from CG. Basically, we end up with a giant pot of games, from multiple sources, all thrown together in the same soup. And these multiple sources don't coordinate the naming to be unique, that's for sure. Take for example, all the <Tal Memorial> tournaments which occur throughout the world on the weekend nearest his birthday. All with the same name going into the Event tag. So, Event/Date isn't enough. (I have to stress, you have to widen your view outside the <CG>-only-world to see this basic point.) Chessbase and SCID have to utilize Event/Date and Site, because they can't assume every Event tag is unique (and the Date only gets mentioned for recurring Events at the same site - the other case where it's guaranteed to break the degeneracy). <CG> is just one source of many. It have to play by the same rules... ... because these useful database programs don't treat its games any different then they do any other source. |
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| Jun-14-16 | | Knight13: <User not found> Care to back up your colorful claim about me? If not here, in your chessforum. |
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Jun-14-16
| | kingscrusher: Hi Chessgames.com
I have quite a few other IM Danny Kopec games - can I email you the PGN file - and should it avoid having games already here - or can you quickly remove the duplicates?! What Email address should I use to send the PGN file to ?! Best wishes
K |
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Jun-14-16
| | kingscrusher: BTW I was also wondering about the boards here - perhaps somehow the javascript buttons for flip and analyse can be made more explicit. I did a sanity check to see if anyone else had an issue with the current square functionality on boards, and you may be interested in this poll which I created earlier on reddit : http://www.strawpoll.me/10481163
I think the current javascript board maybe adaptable to make the reverse and analyse functions more explicit. |
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| Jun-14-16 | | zanzibar: <chessgames> a technical note about <Bundesliga> games... I didn't comment on it when you used it as an example earlier, as I hadn't explicitly worked with those club tournaments previously. Now, having spent a few minutes working with it (OK, maybe an hour) I understand a little better. It's a good example of a structure which presents both an organizational and presentation challenge. It reminds me of an early Vienna (1873) tournament, where the scoring required two versions of the tournament - one with normal scoring for the games, and another stub-version recording the pair match scoring. This suggests a similar treatment with two versions for the Bundesliga games. One might have the games, the other could be all stubs, like done for Vienna. But it's also possible to repackage the games to record the team scores, and put the normal game data in a comment preceding the movelist. Here is some remapping code for getting a TB-2 xtab of the teams using TWIC's version (which makes all the info available): <
P = PGN.load( "bund1516.pgn" )
for p in P:
... p.WhitePlayer, p.BlackPlayer = p.White, p.Black ... p.Round + = "." + p.Board
... p.White, p.Black = p.WhiteTeam, p.BlackTeam
... p.EventSite = p.Site
... p.Site = "Bundesliga 2015-16 / (various) GER"
... p.pgn = "{ %s -- %s @ %s }\n" % (p.WhitePlayer, p.BlackPlayer, p.EventSite) + p.pgn PGN.last_fn = "TWIC - Bundesliga 2015-16 (teams).pgn" PGN.update()
# File "TWIC - Bundesliga 2015-16 (teams).pgn" successfully updated with 952 games. >
This treatment puts the actual player names and game site in a PGN comment... (PGN display of a game looks something like this...)
<
SG Solingen (2649) -- OSG Baden-Baden (2765)
Bundesliga 2015-16 (9.3.2) Bundesliga 2015-16 / (various) GER
2016.02.21 1-0 A07
Rapport, Richard -- Aronian, Levon @ Munich GER
1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.O-O Be7 5.d3 O-O 6.Nbd2 Nc6 ... 86.Kxh6 Rxg3 87.Kh7 1-0 >
The advantage of this super-fast/E-Z approach is that the final team standings can be reproduced (well, almost, as TB-1 is used, and not TB-2). http://theweekinchess.com/chessnews... http://chess-results.com/tnr191830.... |
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| Jun-14-16 | | zanzibar: With that technical aside, it seems a good spot to bring up the topic of tournaments vs collections. From one perspective, the current <TWIC> and <CG> downloads are collections of tournaments, and are properly normalized (one tournament per club vs club match). The idea of normalization is simple, allow SCID/CB to generate meaningful xtabs. Many tournaments, as referred to in normal parlance, are really collections - which then show up as multiple tournaments in the DB viewers. I'm thinking of tournaments which involve playoffs, and perhaps, nullified games. Of course a person wants to download all these games in one go, so grouping them in a collection makes sense. This could be an instance where <CG> does better than <365chess>, btw. But for organizational purposes, the PGN headers need to demarcate the main tournament from the other games. One could also imagine adding special causal (or free) games to a collection as well. E.g. the Immortal Game could be added to the <London (1851)> collection. So, just to be explicit, if
<Event = Event>
then playoffs might have
<Event = Event 1-2e playoff> dropouts
<Event = Event+> (following 365/CB) and extras
<Event = Event++> |
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| Jun-14-16 | | zanzibar: <Kingcrusher> you should mention that these key-functions are specific to those users of pgn4web, or so I believe. <CG> provides other, less popular, viewers which likely don't have these functions (as I don't use them, I can't say with certainty). Also, your poll might mention the g8-help key, which lists all the other keys. I always forget that one, unfortunately. (Actually, I really only use the c8-key to grab the PGN, then it's off to SCID (or into SCID?). For analysis to be most meaningful to me, I like to see MPV's, eval scores, and depths. |
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Jun-15-16
| | Tabanus: A mysterious tournament in London started two days ago, http://www.checkmate-show.com/#!pla...
http://www.chess-results.com/tnr226... |
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Jun-15-16
| | Tabanus: <CG> Front page: Carlsen won the Grand Chess Tour Paris Blitz (2016), not Nakamura. Naka won the rapid, and the rapid and blitz combined. |
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Jun-15-16
 | | MissScarlett: Most game headers echo the Event tag, but not all. Case in point: Lasker vs W Frere, 1894 It has <New York sim> instead of <Simul, 18b>. Isn't that feature automatic? |
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| Jun-15-16 | | TheFocus: <MisScarlett> <It has <New York sim> instead of <Simul, 18b>. Isn't that feature automatic?> I thought it was new. IIRC, the <18b> wasn't always like this; <New York simul> was the norm for a while. Or, am I wrong and it was always like that? |
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ARCHIVED POSTS
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 923 OF 1118 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
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Kibitzing
