|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 696 OF 963 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: <Annie> Innaresting game. It looks, optically, as if White always has some initiative, which morphs into a deadly attack once you get a Rook to g3. But if Black had found 32...Rde8! instead of retreating the Queen ...?
Hard to say what White should do next. There's the Mickey Adams approach: 33.Qxe8 Qxg3+ 34.hxg3 Rxe8 35.Rc6 and White has a superior ending. Otherwise, White has no easy way to maintain pressure. 33.Qd5+ Qe6 looks equal. Black might come out better if White tries anything else. After the weaker 32...Qd7 you polish him off neatly. So ... would you have gone into that ending? Are such small edges winnable in speed games? |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: <cro777> I completely agree with Turgut/chesscard. But how do you persuade a team of voters to take risks? Of course many individuals would prefer that style of play, but they'd also have individual (and maybe unsound) ideas about how to do it. So falling back on engine moves becomes the default option. That Ng4 move is a perfect example. I liked it, because based on analysis by Ceri and others it looked like there were real attacking prospects. Then the engines refuted them, and there was ongoing friction between 'purist' engine analysts and those who aim to use engine analysis to refine human ideas. I don't believe there's a way to resolve this in a 24-hr game. In the longer form, it can be done. |
|
| Feb-10-11 | | hms123: <Annie> Did you notice the possibility of <31....f3+>? click for larger viewSpeed chess is hard. You finished strong. |
|
| Feb-10-11 | | achieve: <Dom>--<So falling back on engine moves becomes the default option.> True - but if so as dictated by the number of voters and timecontrol as in the latest challenge there will be little reason to take part in such a game challenge, right? Not if you aim to go for a win. Optimal conditions likely secure a win over the less optimized "team" regardless of colour. Chesscard is absolutely right. Risks can be minimized even then. Ideal would be to pick a team of say 12-15 team-members who share a similar philosophy and approach accompanying the optimal implementation. In other words there's only so much a team of 300 voters with 90% anonymous can do. Even at 3 days per move, although the prospects improve significantly, of course. I'm not surprised <Chesscard> is doing this well; he's gotten very close to the optimal use of engine < assistence> I reckon. His understanding and work ethic seem to indicate so. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Annie K.: <hms: <Did you notice the possibility of <31....f3+>?>> I certainly did - that's the move I was afraid of. ;p But I gambled he would miss it, as he was focusing on hitting f2, and he did. I did say I was providing the game as a comic centerpiece, dinni? ;) <Dom> if 32...Rde8, I would have gone for Qxe8, yes. That sort of thing was a part of my Emrald training. :) |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: <Annie> I'd probably manage to *lose* from there, as White, after the exchanges. I'd reach something like this - where White has a firm grip and Black can't do anything without dropping pawns:  click for larger viewThen I'd spend ages trying to find a win, while Black instantly moves Ra7-a8-a7. And then there'd be no more time. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | OhioChessFan: <Dom: But how do you persuade a team of voters to take risks? Of course many individuals would prefer that style of play, but they'd also have individual (and maybe unsound) ideas about how to do it. So falling back on engine moves becomes the default option.> I don't know how to escape that.
<Dom again: That Ng4 move is a perfect example. I liked it, because based on analysis by Ceri and others it looked like there were real attacking prospects.> I don't happen to think much of <Ceri> anyway, so that I wasn't very open to the idea from the getgo. I am not sure if that means I will never listen to him again or what. I recall a team FRC game where I made a lukewarm endorsement of a move that was pretty much losing. Maybe I won't listen to me again. <achieve: Ideal would be to pick a team of say 12-15 team-members who share a similar philosophy and approach accompanying the optimal implementation. > Not gonna happen. I think two prominent kibitzers are net detriments to the World team. Most people are enthralled with their ideas. I'm sure they'd be acclaimed as senior analysts, though they surely don't speak for me. I guess there's a lot of people who have widely differing opinions of various analysts. Not sure how you could agree on who the top analysts are any more than you can agree on the top move. I am still annoyed that the recent group of newbies who readily admitted to not knowing (nor apparently caring) who the old timers were have amazingly got religion and are planning next game to assert their senior status. Not a one seems to recognize the irony in that. Wait'll they run into a bunch of newbies who don't care about their senior status. Better late than never to figure that out, but I think it's a forever problem. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: <Niels> I'd been thinking about that. Assuming, as you say, that winning is the sole objective (ie, no 'learning', no 'team spirit', etc) then I'd go for a slightly bigger team, maybe 25 or 30. Both to have a range of human inputs and a widespread of computing power. But then it becomes harder to maintain the kind of cohesion and solidarity you talk about. All this stuff may actually be bad for chess. Engines already allow amateurs to scoff at the efforts of top human players, often without much grasp of the mental pressure involved. In his book 'The Cult of the Amateur', Andrew Keen writes that Web 2.0 - the world of google, Youchoob, various kinds of social networking - is killing off expertise. Traditional media, including newspapers and the music industry, are in freefall. Mainstream cinema and TV may not be far behind. In a world of amateur content it becomes harder for an 'expert' musician, writer or chessplayer to get paid for what they do. Keen helped to invent Web 2.0. So did I, in a small way, just by imagining it about 30 years ago and writing some stories and articles. We are reaping the whirlwind. But there's no way back. Into it, then. Let it come down. |
|
| Feb-10-11 | | cro777: <Domdaniel: I completely agree with Turgut/chesscard. But how do you persuade a team of voters to take risks?.. I don't believe there's a way to resolve this in a 24-hr game. In the longer form, it can be done …Assuming, that winning is the sole objective (ie, no 'learning', no 'team spirit', etc)…> I’m completely aware of a “deterministic chaos” of voting chess and added difficulties connected with 1-day format, but I would not change the style because of that. I would rather adapt certain strategies. A better organization may help a lot. I’m not Voltair but I would never exclude 'learning', 'team spirit', etc from the equation. The sense of balance (that you have) takes an important role here. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: <Ohio> Yep, that's ironic. Am I right in thinking you are the only one who's been present all along? From the birth of the forum system to recent soul-searchings? I remember, maybe about move 8 in GMAN-1, when chaos still ruled, somebody made a plea for 'strong players' to step forward, naming me among others. I replied, in effect "Not me, I'm on the B-list at best", and I mentioned Honza as somebody I knew to be a strong player. Then twinlark got the forum system underway, and organizational leadership became the priority. Which I think we did pretty well, though we were also lucky that Thorsson was there for analytic leadership. Much has changed. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: I may not be around much for a while, so I just want to reassure people that it's neither the lemming affair nor sudden death syndrome. My #1 comp collapsed a few hours ago - I think it caught something nasty from a Russian website. Comp #2 is also down. I've had to go back and dig this ancient one out just to get online. It works, but only just. A computer made of "Stone knives and bearskins", as Mr Spock said. My email is also disrupted for now. Normal service will resume, sometime. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | OhioChessFan: <Am I right in thinking you are the only one who's been present all along? From the birth of the forum system to recent soul-searchings?> I don't know. I wasn't around all that much in Timmerman and Umansky but have had some input every game. It depends on who you'd include on the soul searching committee. <jepflast> has been pretty steady and was pretty early. <YouRang> also comes to mind as in for the long haul. His initial forum call to establish some team guidelines was something of a forerunner of the forum system, though it was quaint enough to address issues of etiquette. |
|
| Feb-10-11 | | hms123: <OCF> <Dom> I found this in my wanderings: User: FAQ NR |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | OhioChessFan: I promise not to violate the anti-LOL rule.......I promise not to violate the anti-LOL rule.......I promise not to violate the anti-LOL rule.......I promise not to violate the anti-LOL rule.......I promise not to violate the anti-LOL rule.......I promise not to violate the anti-LOL rule.......I promise not to violate the anti-LOL rule....... |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Annie K.: <Dom> ouch! :(
And I'm stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere right now because I stayed at work so late I missed the last bus, so I was aiming to catch a train, that was then half an hour late, and has since stopped several times in open country... I'll get home sometime, I suppose.
Not our day, eh? ;s
Hope you can keep that comp alive - I'll try to drop you a note, if I don't hafta collapse straight into bed. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: <hms> Good times, eh? With plenty of trust *and* thrust, factors latterly lacking. We had a semi-troll recurring solipsist for a while. Kinda amusing, as I recall ... insisting that nobody else was real. Not nasty like lemmings or tar-babies ... or the one who kept telling us that the GM would "crush [us] lol". BTW, I'm afraid my email is down. Might take a coupla days to return. I can access CG on this relic, but many other websites overwhelm it. Don't have Fritz either ... Winboard and GNU 5.0, which I used to beat pretty easily. Sigh. Terminological note: the word 'lemming' (derived from Ursula the runaway lemming in Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow) is now part of the generic Frogspawn vocabulary, along with other Frogspawn words such as 'Swarm' and 'Freelance nuisance'. No inference may be made connecting use of the word with real persons, whether living, dead, or both. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: <Annie> No need, notewise. I wouldn't be able to read it. I got into Hotmail, but it keeps sneering at my browser and OS, suggesting I upgrade to something nearer the millennium. And gmail just refuses approaches point-blank. Think I've been through eight computers since this was last activated. Could be worse, I suppose. I could've tried to fly Belfast-Cork this morning. I had considered using that service, out in RL. Get home safe, hey. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: A small irony. During GMAN-1 there was a discussion chez twinlark about the use of short name forms, ethics of. Main point being that it made speedy address and reference much easier, but the user had to be comfortable with it, and it had to be easy to understand. 'Dom' is perhaps the easiest such. I think I was first to suggest 'Deffi' for Open Defence, though Ohio's 'Odie' is good. Speaking of, some people prefer the acronym 'OCF' which always makes me think of a diagnostic list. Only one long-handled participant objected to short forms: it was 'Gufeld_Student', who found 'Guff' and 'Guffy' quite undignified. Ohio also had a stalker for a while. It is only now that I really understand how utterly unpleasant that is. And it's even worse when it seems funny to onlookers. Many learning curves under the bridge. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Annie K.: <Could be worse, I suppose. I could've tried to fly Belfast-Cork this morning.> Very good point.
Just got in... and only a <little> frozen. ;) OK. Mebbe I'll ask Jess for your Hotmail address.
One thing worth trying re. Gmail, if you manage to get in even once, is to scroll straight to the bottom of the page and click the "basic HTML" link. Oh and try not to visit Russian sites... ;p |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: <Annie> I wouldn't bother: I won't try any email again until I get some other machine fixed. Shouldn't take long. This one is relatively old, but that's not really its main problem. After a big crash, a few years back, it wouldn't reboot, and I eventually managed to cobble something half-functional out of it. It's never been repaired by a pro, and probably shoulda been. At least I can mouth off (and ear on) here.
Did I tell you about the local radio reporter? I did, didn't I? I'm not much more than a mile from the airport here, where a small commuter plane crashed earlier, landing in fog. Radio guy says: "People in the terminal building could see nothing, but eye-witnesses reported a loud bang." |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Annie K.: Heh. Yeah, you did. "Earwitnesses" sounds kinda funny though. ;) |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Domdaniel: I'm told that plain "witnesses" is good. The sense organ is apparent from the context. |
|
Feb-10-11
 | | Annie K.: There <is> that. :) Unless we're talking about some pesky religious gang that likes to buttonhole innocent passers-by and tell'em all about the voices they are hearing. :s |
|
| Feb-11-11 | | achieve: <Dom> a few remarks, thinking out loud ... <Assuming, as you say, that winning is the sole objective (ie, no 'learning', no 'team spirit', etc)> _winning_ being *the* as in 'main', overriding objective, and of course you cannot disgard learning and team-spirit, essential elements/ingredients, without which the performance level by definition will decrease, plummet. <then I'd go for a slightly bigger team, maybe 25 or 30. Both to have a range of human inputs and a widespread of computing power.> I tend to agree: eg 4 analysis units of 4 persons each, plus an overview unit, also considering the need to deal with and conquer different timezones in which the units operate, etc. ... which indeed will add up to 20-25, perhaps a few more, total, in such a 'team'. <But then it becomes harder to maintain the kind of cohesion and solidarity you talk about.> I think it could be possible, but quite a strain on indeed team-spirit, organization, not obsessively draining energy from oneself and eachother... All rather utopian, I agree, but worth the term <"CHALLENGE"> ;-) Btw - I checked the 128 games sofar played at the WCCC, and about 30 decisive games, 19 - 11 wins in favour of the White pieces, Black doing quite well I think. |
|
Feb-11-11
 | | Domdaniel: It may be time to discard the old division of a chess game into three parts, opening, middlegame, ending. They're still useful in some ways - easy to grasp as ideas, easy to write books about - but they no longer adequately reflect the way the game is played. The old art of the leisurely post-adjournment endgame is dead: now endings are blitz finishes, stressful penalty shootouts watched by viewers with tablebases. I'd highlight two points in a game: the first and second crisis. First crisis comes when you leave theory behind (move 10 or move 25) and try to adapt your knowledge of generic plans with the specifics of the situation. GM games typically consume a lot of time here, jostling for advantage, looking for plans, calculating. Second crisis comes when one side has an advantage but must take some risk to convert it to a win. Sometimes, due to poor defending, no risk is required. But in a good game this 2nd crisis has a moment where counterplay is possible. Winning is hard, or should be. |
|
 |
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 696 OF 963 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|