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| May-07-09 | | achieve: Very good find <Rfxc2> If say Bh3 - and then:
<<Rc7> picks up Black's <a-pawn> by force.Pretty sure about this- >
And the Doctor is not so pretty sure about this, as the <a7> square is on the <K-g1> diagonal, and very nasty threats will pop up like a <Discovered Check-attack> perhaps with ...Rd1+ (ouch) and the <c1>-rook is falling... 
click for larger viewBut my engine now after a long thought thinks highly of Rfxc2! Kudos for that, <Jess> |
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| May-07-09 | | hms123: <jess> After <34.Rfxc2 Bd3 35.Rc7 Bd8 36.Rxa7 Bb6>
click for larger view |
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| May-07-09 | | hms123: <jess> <36.Rc8+ Bd8 37.R1c7> is better.
click for larger view<37....a5>
click for larger view |
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| May-07-09 | | achieve: <howard!> In your first FEN the Black <d3>-Bishop disables, blocks, the ...Rd1++ <discovered Double Check> Why play the B to the <d3> square, where it Blocketh the d-rook? HAHAHAHAAAHAHAHA
Never mind me -- who is winning in that last FEN?
Pretty tight there on the c- and d-files |
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May-07-09
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Ah so.... I didn't see that FEN you guys found with the discovered check threat-- So in the last FEN by <hms MOOSE>, how do you judge the position? It's certainly not a forced win from here surely... me and <Elephant> found that after the text move from the game, no defence can prevent Black from gaining a won game- especially if White tries the defence he played in the actual game (which is the puzzle solution of course). The <MOOSE FEN> there looks hairy to me. Imagine playing either color in time trouble.
White Queen pawns can be targeted by Black's LSB and Black's a-pawn can become a target for the White Rook on c7-- I bet a couple of GMs could play this out to a draw. |
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May-07-09
| | jessicafischerqueen: <who is winning in that last FEN?> JINX
nervy position |
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May-07-09
| | jessicafischerqueen: In <Howard's> first FEN the discovered check still wins material- <Rc4+> still picks up the White Rook in exchange for a bishop- Then Black has a clear piece up and a won game-
But the Bishop retreat to <h3> looks "clean"- But later Black might want that Bishop nearer White's queen pawns, which are both on light squares? |
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| May-07-09 | | achieve: Nervy indeed. I think the ...Bd3 is not good enough, as I said it blocks and interferes with the movement of the Black d4 rook (to d1). ...Bh3 may be better
Same patterns emerge but with better chances for equality for Black... Things might go to something like this:
click for larger viewW to play
heh, +0.05 (Rybka) |
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| May-07-09 | | hms123: <jess> <niels. In the last FEN, Black has a slight advantage, but is far from winning. |
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| May-07-09 | | achieve: <But the Bishop retreat to <h3> looks "clean"- But later Black might want that Bishop nearer White's queen pawns, which are both on light squares?> Good point, and certainly one to consider... Very complex position this.My gut tells me Black can hold... |
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| May-07-09 | | hms123: <34...Bh3 35.Rc8+ Bd8 36.Ra8 Kf8 37.Rcc8 Ke8>
click for larger view
<38.Rxa7 Rd7 39. Rxd7 Kxd7 40.Rb8>
click for larger view
Even. |
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| May-07-09 | | achieve: Ermm... White can hold?
Back to ze drawing board... |
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| May-07-09 | | achieve: <howard> Your second FEN is exactly the same as mine: +0.05 So Fritz and Ryb "agree"
Well, what does that teach me...
The final FEN is still a bit "nervy" for us humans.
I think <Jess> early conclusions were right on the money, and deserve another round of applause, irrespective of all the fancy Pin discovery Channel lines. |
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May-07-09
| | jessicafischerqueen: If <Rybka> is drawing itself- then we might say that two GMs might find a draw as well?
I think there's plenty of room for someone to make a mistake though. I'd bet a lot of money there would be a decisive result in this line between <sub-2000> rated players. |
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| May-07-09 | | hms123: <niels> <jess> I agree with Jess. There would be a decisive result most of the time--I would say even for <sub-2200>players. That's a tough, unbalanced position. Good find, Jess. And, here at least, a nice morning's workout. |
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| May-07-09 | | achieve: <jessicafischerqueen: If <Rybka> is drawing itself- then we might say that two GMs might find a draw as well?
I think there's plenty of room for someone to make a mistake though.> I think so - not at all sure here two GM's would draw this... Nigel Short said a few months ago he had to play the last round Corus while ending up so tired in that final game that he <couldn't count the number of pieces on the board> anymore. He wasn't kidding.
I wouldn't connect the outcome to the two ratings of the players. Exhibit A: The game of today's puzzle, where you found Rfxc2, and the GM played an instantly losing move. |
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May-07-09
| | jessicafischerqueen: Heh....
Thank goodness for those <instantly losing moves>. If they didn't exist, I couldn't win any games. |
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| May-07-09 | | hms123: <niels> Good point, indeed. The issue, though, is that finding one's way through this kind of position is difficult for everyone, but that weaker players are more likely to make a third-best or fourth-best choice, rather than merely a second-best choice. Of course, as you say, fatigue and other factors would certainly enter into the equation in a particular instance. |
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May-07-09
| | jessicafischerqueen: <other factors>
Once I was calculating a long sequence on my porch and my Mom made me help her bring in the groceries. When I got back to the board, I played an <instantly losing move>. However, I *did* enjoy some tasty perogies later with my Mom. |
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| May-07-09 | | hms123: <I *did* enjoy some tasty perogies later with my Mom.> Lucky you. Are then any left? I guess not--just as well, I suppose. Crumbs. |
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| May-07-09 | | achieve: <weaker players are more likely to make a third-best or fourth-best choice> No doubt. But... Players
- do have their "specialties"
- can get inspired, rejuvenated
- can get overcome by nerves
- can overcome the nerves
- etc
<Howard> Having replayed a lot of the Olympiad games where 300+ rating difference was involved, quite remarkable was the number of times the lower rated "weaker" guy was outplaying the stronger one out of the opening, well into the middle game, but around move 35 started throwing away the win, during crunch-time... But statistically you will be proven right, I suppose, even though the stat may have little baring in case of an individual game/ particular position. |
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May-07-09
| | jessicafischerqueen: yes- given position, given day- anybody can lose the thread of a position, especially this kind. Also, sometimes <minus 300 points> people "take scalps" precisely because the <Master player> is emotionally "resting." You can't really "rest" when you're playing serious chess. The endurance test is mental, not "glutear"-- It's not the sitting on your butt for 3 to 7 hours-- it's the keeping the thread of the game for that long. Sometimes the worm turns... |
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May-07-09
| | jessicafischerqueen: <H>
<crumbs>
heh-- you realize that perogies can't have crumbs eh? THEY'RE SOFT!!
Do they have "ethnic food" in your state?
They have "ethnic food" here, but it's all <Korean ethnic food>. Mrs. Ethnographer
Peeling Potatos division |
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| May-07-09 | | hms123: <niels> <jess> The problem with statistics is that they don't have any bearing on an individual case. As Damon Runyan once said: <The race is not always to the swift, not the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.> |
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| May-07-09 | | madlydeeply: ok no more foreigner that is so immature sorry. Whew what a relief it is to let go ofSEEMS LIKE THE FIRST TIME I WOULD CLIMB ANY MOUNTAIN SAIL ACCROSS A STORMY SEA YAH YAH um so how do you make those groovy position graphics, with the li'l chess pardner? |
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