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| Mar-15-07 | | Nasruddin Hodja: <Teft>, there is no way we're going to get anything better than (-0.10) with any line in this position--white' structure at this moment is just too sound to hope for anything more. Even anything more than 0.00 would probably be too much to ask with best play by white. The only thing we're looking for is a position where black won't stand worse but still has enough dynamics to give winning chances to both sides in case of a mistake. Again, here's <RV's> Rybka line (28-ply): 18...Ng4 19.Ne5 Bxe5 20.dxe5 (the weakening of the dark squares is offset by the "dead point" of white's pawn at e5) dxc4 21.bxc4 fxg3 22.hxg3 Rcd8 (the c6 pawn is poisoned-- 23. Bxc6?? Nxf2 24. Rxf2 Rxf2 25. Kxf2 Qc5+ 26. Kf1 Qxc6) 23.a4 c5 24.Bh3 h5 25.f3 (0.00). I think black is quite good here--the knight has good squares at f5 and d4, which can only be taken away by advancing and weakening the pawns in front of white's king, and black's rooks and LSB definitely look better than their counterparts. Here's an amended possible continuation:
25. ... Nh6 26. Qe1 Nf5 27. Bxf5 (blacks's knight seems to be too strong otherwise) Rxf5 28. a5 Bb7 29. axb6 axb6 30. Rd2 Ba6 and I don't see anything better for white than repetition given the weakness of the c4 pawn. Of course, this is not a winning position for black, but we should give up all illusions we can obtain that with good moves by whites--we just simply have to pray that GMYS makes a mistake somewhere. |
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| Mar-15-07 | | Boomie: <izimbra: ...if you play it out, you'll see that white gets the pawn back with interest.> Do you have that line? I haven't found it yet. |
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| Mar-15-07 | | izimbra: <Boomie: <izimbra: ...if you play it out, you'll see that white gets the pawn back with interest.> Do you have that line? I haven't found it yet.> It's not worth analyzing super hard because you can figure out what happens eventually long before it does. Here is a slow and painful example: 19 Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21.hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5 23.e3 Nxe5 24. Bd4 Qd6 25. Bxe5 Qxe5 26. Rd1 Rc7 27. c5 b5 28. Rd6 Bb7 29. Bh3 Re8 30. a4 a6 31. Rcd2 Rf7 32. Bg2 Rc7 33. R2d4 Qf5 34. Be4 Qf7 35. Qd1 g6 36. Rd7 Rxd7 37. Rxd7 Re7 38. Rd6 e5 39. Bxc6 The point is that black "needs to give back a pawn to regain initiative" but the only reasonable pawn to give back would give a protected passed pawn to white. So with good play, white should win. |
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Mar-15-07
 | | kutztown46: <Hugin 3/15:> I start to wonder if not 18 - Ng4 is better for us after all, regardless of engine lines...someone should look closer into that line and 18 - fxg3 as well..here is one suggestion
18 -Ng4 19 Qd2 Rcd8 20 Bh3 h5 21 Qd3 Qf6 22 Bg2 e5
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Mar-15-07
| | kutztown46: To all interested in 18...Ng4:
I had no time for analysis tonight but tomorrow I will be on vacation at home. I will be doing projects on my computer most of the day and will have Fritz running in the background. I'll try to post some analysis by late afternoon (Eastern US time) and then try to pull some kind of summary together. Thanks to everyone for their contributions to this forum. |
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| Mar-15-07 | | Boomie: <izimbra> Thanks for the response. I've found an improvement (I think) for black. 19 Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21.hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5 23.e3 Nxe5 24. Bd4 Qd6 25. Bxe5 Qxe5 26. Rd1 <Qh5> 27. Rd4 Qc5 28. Rd7 Rf7 29. Rxf7 Kxf7 -0.30/13
click for larger view |
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| Mar-15-07 | | Boomie: <truefriends: After 18... Ng4 white can close the K-side by 19 h3 Nh6 20 g4. Is there a forced closing of the K-side after 18... Ne4? If there is not we should play Ne4!> If only chess were so easy. I tried the h3-g4 idea and black is just fine. Black closes the queenside with dxc4 bxc4 c5, a sequence that appears in many lines. White's battery is frustrated.
18...Ng4 19.h3 Nh6 20.g4 dxc4 21.bxc4 c5 22.d5 e5 -0.33/16 |
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| Mar-16-07 | | izimbra: <Boomie: <izimbra> Thanks for the response. I've found an improvement (I think) for black. 19 Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21.hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5 23.e3 Nxe5 24. Bd4 Qd6 25. Bxe5 Qxe5 26. Rd1 <Qh5> 27. Rd4 Qc5 28. Rd7 Rf7 29. Rxf7 Kxf7 > That's a good try. It turns the position into something ridiculously tactical. The following gets the pawn back for white and roughly equalizes, but I don't know whether I searched deep enough (this is so tactical I'm really just blunder checking the computer rather than the other way around): 19 Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21.hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5 23.e3 Nxe5 24. Bd4 Qd6 25. Bxe5 Qxe5 26. Rd1 Qh5 27. c5 Bb5 28. Rd4 e5 29. Rd6 Qf5 30. Qb2 e4 31.cxb6 axb6 32. a4 Bd3 33.Rcxc6 |
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Mar-16-07
 | | TheDestruktor: I am double checking it, before I post in the main forum. But I found a line that may put 18...Ng4 in question. Not as a viable move, but as the best move. 18...Ng4 19.Ne5 Bxe5 20.dxe5 fxg3 21hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5 23.e3 Nxe5 I believe that this position is emi-forced after 18...Ng4 19.Ne5. Now my continuation for white is:
24.Bd4 Qd6 25.Rd1 Rfd8 26 f4 Nf7 27.c5 bxc5 28.Rxc5
White Now has the threat of Bf3 followed by Bxg7. It seems to me that, whatever black plays now, whit will regain the pawn and mantain the iniciative. Maybe the best try for black after this lin is 28...e5. But my evaluation is that, even after this move, black is fighting for equality. Contrast it with the lines after 18...Ne4, where it is white who is fighting for equality. |
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Mar-16-07
| | TheDestruktor: This is my analysis. Based on this, I can`t recommend 18...Ng4 After 18...Ng4 19.Ne5, we have the semi-forced variation: 18...Ng4 19.Ne5 Bxe5 20.dxe5 fxg3 21.hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5 23.e3 Nxe5 I believe that the following continuation will give a lasting advantage to white. 24.Bd4 Qd6 25.Rd1
The analysis below shows the possible variations from this point, with all main alternatives for black. 25...Rfd8
<25...Nf3+ 26.Bxf3 Rxf3 27.Bxg7 Qe7 28.Ba1 e5 29.c5 Qf6
(29...Rf5 30.cxb6 axb6 31.e4 1.68/12  ;
29...Rf6 30.e4 Rf3 31.cxb6 1.95/12 )
30.Qb2 Re8 31.Rd7 1.17/12 ± >
26.f4 Nf7
<26... Nxc4 27.Bf3 Qc7
(27...b5 28.Bf6 gxf6 29.Rxd6 Rxd6 30.Rh2 e5 (30...Rcd8 31.g4 (31.Be2 e5 32.g4 R8d7 0.37/12 ² ) 31...Nd2 32.Kf2 Bb7 0.55/12 ² ) 31.Be2 Rcd8 32.g4 R8d7 0.37/12 ² )
28.Rxc4 Bxc4 29.Qxc4 Qf7 30.Bg4 (30.Rf1 Qg6 31.g4 b5 32.Qb4 1.41/15 ) 30...Rd6 31.Bc3 Rxd1+ 32.Bxd1 1.41/17 ) > 27.c5 bxc5
<29...Qc7 30.cxb6 axb6 31.Rxc6 Qe7 32.Rxc8 Rxc8 0.93/12 ± > 28.Rxc5 e5
<28...Bb5 29.Qc2 e5 30.fxe5 Qe6 31.a4 Ba6 1.27/12 ± > < 28... Rc7 29.Bf3 Qe7 30.Rxc6 Rdc8 (30...Rdd7 3.Rxc7 Rxc7 32.Qb2 1.01/12 ± ) 31.Rxc7 Rxc7 32.Qb2 1.01/12 ± > 29.fxe5 Qg6 30.Qc2 Qxg3 31.Qf2 Qxf2+ 32.Kxf2 Bb5 33.Ra1 Ng5 34.a4 Bd3 35.Rxc6 Rxc6 36.Bxc6 a6 0.64 ± ) The general assessment is an advantage for white. It is not a lost game for black, but it will be frankly on the defensive, and white can gain a decisive advantage with on single imprecise move by black. |
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| Mar-16-07 | | TefthePersian: Black can avoid all this with a perpetual check as I showed in the main forum. ...Ng4 is completely safe. |
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| Mar-16-07 | | TefthePersian: There is 20...dxc4 21. bxc4 fxg3 22. hxg3 Qc5 23. e3 Nxe5 24. Bd4 Qd6 25. f4 Ng4 26. Bf3 e5 27. Bxg4 exd4 loses the exchange. Which adds weight to <Destruktor>'s claim, but again, these lines can be avoided. |
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Mar-16-07
| | kutztown46: Regarding 18...Ng4:
The critical line seems to follow 18...Ng4 19.Ne5 Bxe5 20.dxe5 fxg3 21.hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5 23.e3 Nxe5, as reported by <TheDestruktor>. I have turned my attention to it now. For the last several hours, I have had Fritz 9 looking at 18...Ng4. It is interesting that at 15-ply, 19. Ne5 is not in the top six choices by Fritz. In fact, the only move with a plus score for white was 19. Bh3 (0.24). For what it's worth, this turns into a very complicated struggle which turns to black's advantage within a few moves: 19. Bh3 (.24/15) h5 (.11/13)
20. Ne5 (.22/14) Qg5 (.11/14)
21. f3 (.14/14) Ne3 (-.01/16)
22. Bxe6+ (-.47/15)
I stopped here so I could spend the rest of the day trying to rescue 18...Ng4 from the line reported by <TheDestruktor>. However, we need not fear 19. Bh6. |
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Mar-16-07
| | kutztown46: I meant we need not fear 19. Bh3 (not Bh6). |
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| Mar-16-07 | | Nasruddin Hodja: <TheDestruktor: 18...Ng4 19.Ne5 Bxe5 20.dxe5 fxg3 21hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5 23.e3 Nxe5
I believe that this position is emi-forced after 18...Ng4 19.Ne5.> I must have missed something several posts back. Why has the main line in <RV's> Rybka forum, 18. ... Ng4 19. Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21. hxg3 dxc4 22. bxc4 Rcd8 (instead of 22. ... Qc5?!) been ignored? Is something wrong with 22. ... Rcd8 23. Bxc6 Rxf2 24. Rxf2 Nxf2 25. Kxf2 Qc5+, or has an improvement been found on white's 23. a4 in the main line? To me, 22. ... Qc5 23. e3 Nxe5? seems just wrong as it turns white's hitherto passive Bb2 into a powerful piece for the sake of a mere pawn. Why should this line even be considered? |
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| Mar-16-07 | | Nasruddin Hodja: Also, as I mentioned in the main forum, I don't see why 23. Bf3 is a refutation of 22. ... Rcd8. Black simply answers 23. ... h5 and white still has no pressure on c6 and can't even eject the knight with f3 now. Play might then go 24. Rfd1 c5 and black has nothing to fear, especially in view of the threat of trading off white's good bishop with ... Bb7. |
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| Mar-16-07 | | MarkThornton: HAs anyone considered what we do if White just ignores 18...Ng4, and gets on with his play in the centre and the Q-side. For instance, what do we play after 19. Rd1 ? |
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| Mar-16-07 | | MarkThornton: <MarkThornton: HAs anyone considered what we do if White just ignores 18...Ng4, and gets on with his play in the centre and the Q-side.
For instance, what do we play after 19. Rd1 ?> OK, I'll try to answer my own question. How about
19.Rd1 dxc4 20. bxc4 e5 with mass exchanges on e5. Am I right? |
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| Mar-16-07 | | MarkThornton: I'll try another idea.
19. Qa1, putting another piece on e5. My plan is to ignore the Ng4, and keep the knight on f3 for several moves, defending the K-side, waiting until Ne5 is REALLY effective. What does Black do in this position?
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| Mar-16-07 | | MarkThornton: <Boomie:
18...Ng4 19. h3 Nh6 20. g4 dxc4 21. bxc4 c5 22. d5 e5 -0.33/16) Why does White help Black with 22.d5? I propose instead 22. e4! with the lines a) 22...fxe3 23. Qxe3 cxd4 24. Qxd4 Bc5 25. Qe5 Bd6 26. Qe2 Bb7 27. Re1 Rce8 28. Ne5 Bxg2 29. Kxg2 Qb7+ 30. Qe4 with advantage. b) 22... cxd4 23. e5 Bc5 24. Nxd4 with advantage.
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| Mar-16-07 | | MarkThornton: <Nasruddin Hodja: One possibility is <MarkThornton's>: 19. h3 Nh6 20. g4?!
after which a plausible line might be:
19. ... Nf7 20. Rd1 h5 21. Ne5 hxg4 22. hxg4 Bxe5 23. dxe5 Ng5 > What are you playing against 20. Re1, threatening 21. e4 ? |
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| Mar-16-07 | | MarkThornton: As a general comment, there is far too much analysis here of 19. Ne5?!, which helpfully gifts black the useful c5 square, and very little analysis of anything else. I remain unconvinced by 18...Ng4 |
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Mar-16-07
| | kutztown46: <Nasruddin Hodja: Also, as I mentioned in the main forum, I don't see why 23. Bf3 is a refutation of 22. ... Rcd8. Black simply answers 23. ... h5 and white still has no pressure on c6 and can't even eject the knight with f3 now. Play might then go 24. Rfd1 c5 and black has nothing to fear, especially in view of the threat of trading off white's good bishop with ... Bb7.> How about 24. c5 bxc5 25. a4 c4 (.57/14)? This does not look any better for us. |
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Mar-16-07
| | kutztown46: <TefthePersian: 18...Ng4 19. Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21. hxg3 dxc4 22. bxc4 Qc5 23. e3 Nxe5 24. Bd4 Qd6 25. Qa1 Nf3+ 26. Bxf3 Rxf3 27. Bxg7 Qd3 is definitely level or maybe some advantage for us. <Destruktor> considers 25. Rd1 as being difficult for us.
25. Rd1 Rfd8 26. f4 Nf7 or ...Nxc4 and black's screwed. There's no need to go further. It is amazing how simply moving a different rook gives black a fine game: 25. Rd1 Rcd8 26. f4 c5 27. fxe5 Qd7 28. Rcd2 cxd4 29. Rxd4 Qc7 30. Rxd8 Rxd8 31. Rxd8+ Qxd8
-.14 at 18 ply, Rybka 2.3.1
32. c5 Qc7 33. c6 Qxe5 etc.
Black is fine or better.
30. Rd6 Rxd6 31. exd6 Qc5
Same verdict.>
I've spent a lot of time looking at your 25...Rcd8 (instead of 25...Rfd8). Play continues: 26. f4 c5 27. fxe5 Qd7 28. Be4 (better than Rcd2) cxd4 29. exd4 Bb7 30. d5 exd5 31. Qg5 Qa4 32. cxd5 Bxd5 33. Rxd5 Qxe4 34. Rxd8 Qxc2 35. Rxf8+ Kxf8 
click for larger viewBlack is up a pawn but white has a passed pawn. Fritz rates the position dead even. What do you think? |
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| Mar-16-07 | | Nasruddin Hodja: Ok. It took me a while, but in spite of <izimbra's> and <Tabanus's> discovery of 23. Bf3 h5 24. c5!, I still think the full line after Rybka's 22nd move is fully viable for black. Here's the key, I think: 18. ... Ng4 19. Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21. hxg3 dxc4 22. bxc4 Rcd8!? based on the tactical calculation 23. Bxc6? Rxf2 24. Rxf2 Nxf2 25. Kxf2 Qc5+ 26. Kf1 Qxc6. Now I believe that the old line of 22. ... Rcd8 was at least an equal, and probably better alternative than the risky 22. ... Qc5 23. e3 Nxe5?! However, <izimbra's> ingenious suggestion of: 23. Bf3 h5 24. c5?!
does seem to put the line in doubt, as it seems that the queen-rook battery will now operate in full force. I did find an antidote, however: 24. ... Bd3!
Accepting the bishop gift leads to 25. exd3 Rxf3 26. cxb6 axb6 and either 27. d4 c5! 28. dxc5 bxc5 29. Rxc5 Nxf2! and 30. Rxf2 fails to 30. ... Rd1+ or
27. Rxc6 Rdxd3 and now taking the b6 pawn is highly problematic because of 28. ... Qa7 or 28. ... Qd8. White doesn't get enough compensation for the exchange if he declines the bishop by 25. Bxg4 Bxc2, I think, and declining the bishop by moving the c2 rook leads to either: 25. Rd2 Rxf3 26. exf3 Bxf1 27. Rxd8+ Qxd8 28. Kxf1 Nh6 29. cxb6 Qxb6 or 25. Rc3 Rxf3 26. exf3 Bxf1 27 Kxf1 Nxe5 28. Qe3 Rd1+ 29. Ke2 Rb1 30. Bc1 Qf6. In all of these lines, black is at least equal, I think. BUT I NEED SOMEONE WITH FRITZ OR RYBKA TO RUN 18. ... Ng4 19. Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21. hxg3 dxc4 22. bxc4 Rcd8?! 23. Bf3 h5 24. c5! Bd3!?, just to make sure that it is sound. Ok, enough hyperventilating. I still think 18. ... Ng4 is fully sound. |
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Kibitzing
A majority vote for 1-0 means we resign. 