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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 91 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Mar-16-07 | | Nasruddin Hodja: And won't I look like an idiot if there's a crude blunder in my beautiful line... ;-) |
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| Mar-16-07 | | Nasruddin Hodja: From the main forum:
Wow, so at least I didn't do a _major_ blunder, according to Rybka.
Still, I'm starting to wonder if computers are all they're cracked up to be. To my mind, after 23. Bf3 h5 24. c5! Bd3! 25. Rd2 Rxf3 26. exf3 Bxf1 27. Kxf1 Rxd2 28. Qxd2 Nh6 29. cxb6 axb6 black has a queenside pawn majority and his soon to be centralized knight is much better, imo, than white's e5-hobbled bishop. And after
25. Rd2 Rf3 26. exf3 Bxf1 27. fxg4 Rxd2 28. Qxd2 Bh3! and I don't think white's king is out of the woods by any means. |
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Mar-16-07
 | | kutztown46: <Nasruddin Hodja: <Kutztown46> Sure, you might as well post it, though probably in your forum in order to spare people the verbiage and chess code. Hmph. #$#@*! computers. Russum frussum...> It's still running, now at 17-ply and (0.76).
25. Rd2 Rxf3 26. exf3 Bxf1 27. Kxf1 Rxd2 28. Qxd2 Nh6 29. Qd6 Nf5 30. Qxc6 bxc5 31.g4 |
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| Mar-16-07 | | Nasruddin Hodja: Hmmm. You're right. 29. Qd6 does give white the upper hand. Oh well, all that time ;-) |
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Mar-16-07
 | | TheDestruktor: This is the update of my analysis 18...Ng4 19.Ne5. Comments have been added for the alternatives of 19... Qg5, 22...Rcd8 and 25...Rcd8, that were proposed after I posted the original analysis. Based on the analysis below, and in face of the results of the analysis for 18...Ne4, I still can`t recommend 18...Ng4. My assessment is that white still have the advantage, and black has to figth hard for the equality. The only alternative that seems to actually give equality for black is 25...Rcd8, that leads to an even endgame and where I could not improve on the analysis by <kutztown46>. But it also doesn`t change my basic assessment: in this line, black can have equality at the most. Here is the updated analysis:
18...Ng4 19.Ne5 Bxe5
<19... Qg5 20.gxf4 Rxf4 21.e3 Rff8 (21...Rf6 22.f4 Qh5 23.h3 Nh6 24.Qd1 0.53/13 ² ) 22.f4 Qh4 23.Nxg4 Qxg4 24.Rf3 0.64/15 ² > 20.dxe5 fxg3 21.hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Qc5
<22...Rcd8 23.Bf3 h5 24.c5 Bd3 (24...bxc5 25.a4 Bd3 26.Rd2 Rxf3 27.exf3 0.29/16 ² ) 25.Rd2 Rxf3 26.exf3 Bxf1 27.Kxf1 Rxd2 28.Qxd2 Nh6 29.Qd6 Kf7 30.Qxc6 Qxc5 31.Qd7 0.50/15 ² > 23.e3 Nxe5 24.Bd4 Qd6 25.Rd1 Rfd8
<25...Nf3+ 26.Bxf3 Rxf3 27.Bxg7 Qe7 28.Ba1 e5 29.c5 Qf6
(29...Rf5 30.cxb6 axb6 31.e4 1.68/12  ;
29...Rf6 30.e4 Rf3 31.cxb6 1.95/12 )
30.Qb2 Re8 31.Rd7 1.17/12 ± >
< 25...Rcd8 26. f4 c5 27. fxe5 Qd7 28. Be4 (better than Rcd2) cxd4 29. exd4 Bb7 30. d5 exd5 31. Qg5 Qa4 32. cxd5 Bxd5 33. Rxd5 Qxe4 34. Rxd8 Qxc2 35. Rxf8+ Kxf8 = > 26.f4 Nf7
<26... Nxc4 27.Bf3 Qc7
(27...b5 28.Bf6 gxf6 29.Rxd6 Rxd6 30.Rh2 e5 (30...Rcd8 31.g4 (31.Be2 e5 32.g4 R8d7 0.37/12 ² ) 31...Nd2 32.Kf2 Bb7 0.55/12 ² ) 31.Be2 Rcd8 32.g4 R8d7 0.37/12 ² )
28.Rxc4 Bxc4 29.Qxc4 Qf7 30.Bg4 (30.Rf1 Qg6 31.g4 b5 32.Qb4 1.41/15 ) 30...Rd6 31.Bc3 Rxd1+ 32.Bxd1 1.41/17 ) > 27.c5 bxc5
<29...Qc7 30.cxb6 axb6 31.Rxc6 Qe7 32.Rxc8 Rxc8 0.93/12 ± > 28.Rxc5 e5
<28...Bb5 29.Qc2 e5 30.fxe5 Qe6 31.a4 Ba6 1.27/12 ± > < 28... Rc7 29.Bf3 Qe7 30.Rxc6 Rdc8 (30...Rdd7 3.Rxc7 Rxc7 32.Qb2 1.01/12 ± ) 31.Rxc7 Rxc7 32.Qb2 1.01/12 ± > 29.fxe5 Qg6 30.Qc2 Qxg3 31.Qf2 Qxf2+ 32.Kxf2 Bb5 33.Ra1 Ng5 34.a4 Bd3 35.Rxc6 Rxc6 36.Bxc6 a6 0.64 ± |
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| Mar-16-07 | | Themofro: Here's the analysis i got on Ng4 from Fritz:
17. Qc1 f4 18. Nf3 Ng4 19. Rd1 (19. Bh3 h5 (19... Nh6 20. c5 bxc5 21.dxc5 Bb8 22. Qe1 Rce8 23. Nd4
Qd7 24. Qa5 $11 0.18/15)
20. Ne5 Qg5 21. gxf4 Rxf4 22. Kh1 c5 23. e3 Bxe5 24.exf4 $17 -0.73/14) (19. c5 bxc5 (19... Bc7 20. Bh3 h5 21. Qd2 bxc5 22. Rxc5 fxg3 23. hxg3 Bb6 24. Rcc1 $11 0.11/15)
20. Bh3 h5 21. dxc5 Bc7 22. Bg2 fxg3
23. hxg3 e5 24. Nh4 $15 -0.48/15) (19. cxd5 exd5 (19... cxd5 20. Rxc8 Rxc8 21. Qd2 Rf8 22. Rc1 Qe8 23. Rc3 Nf6 24. Ne5 $15 -0.29/16)
20. Bh3 h5 21. Re1 Bb7 22. Rf1 a5 23. Ne5 Bxe5 24. dxe5 $17 -1.34/15) 19... fxg3 (19... c5 20. h3 dxc4
21. bxc4 Nh6 22. dxc5 Rxc5 23. Qd2 Bc7 24. gxf4 $11 0.00/15) 20. hxg3
Qf6 21. Qg5 Qxg5 22. Nxg5 Nxf2 23. Rf1 Bxg3 24. Rc3 $15 -0.34/15 |
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| Mar-17-07 | | ianD: Any one looked at Ng4 Ne5 and then Nh6 in detail.
Time is running out.
I am currently voting for Ne4 but am desperate to find something else. |
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| Mar-17-07 | | Thorsson: Here is another plan which looks OK for White in the Rcd8 line. <18...Ng4 19.Ne5 Bxe5 20.dxe5 fxg3 21.hxg3 dxc4 22.bxc4 Rcd8> 23.a4 (threat Ba3) c5 24.a5. Now according to Rybka, at depth 25, Black should play 24...bxa5, but after 25.Bh3, which it assesses as equal, I prefer White. |
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| Mar-17-07 | | isemeria: Here are some discoveries in the 23. Bf3 line. <18...Ng4 19. Ne5 Bxe5 20. dxe5 fxg3 21. hxg3 dxc4 22. bxc4 Rcd8 23. Bf3> And now 23...h5 24. c5 bxc5 25. Rxc5 (<25. Rd2 Rd5! an exchange sac which White can choose to accept or decline>) 25...Rxf3 26. exf3 Bxf1 27. Kxf1 (<27. fxg4 Be2  >) 27...Qf8 28. Ke2 (<28. fxg4 Qf3 29. Ke1 Rd3 = draw by repetition>) 28...Nh2 29. Rc3 Qf7. 
click for larger viewHere HIARCS 10 suggests repetition by 30. Qc2 Qd7 31. Rc5 Qf7 32. Rc3 Qd7. I don't know if there is anything better for either colour. |
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Mar-19-07
| | kutztown46: ,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./
Beginning of discussion on 19...Qg5
,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./ |
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Mar-19-07
| | kutztown46: <realbrob 3/19:> I've been analysing 19..Qg5 for a while, but I didn't like it because it's possible that the queen gets tied to the defence of the f4 pawn. Besides that, we won't be able to move the f4 pawn, because if so White can trade queens and the whole attack is over. |
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Mar-19-07
| | kutztown46: <Dionyseus 3/19:> Here's some analysis of 19...Qg5, with a tactical version of Rybka:
Analysis by Rybka WinFinder 2.2 mp after 19...g5 :
20.gxf4 Rxf4 21.cxd5 exd5 22.f3 Rcf8 23.b4 R8f6 24.Rxc6 Bxe2 25.Rc8+ Rf8 26.Re1 Bxf3 = (-0.05) Depth: 19 00:09:36 125mN |
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Mar-19-07
| | kutztown46: <izimbra 3/19:> Here's a Qg5 line that uses Rybka's Nd7 followup and works out well for black.
19...Qg5 20. Nd7 fxg3 21. hxg3 Qxc1 22.Bxc1 Rf7 23. Ne5 Bxe5 24. dxe5 Nc5 25. b4 Nb3 26. cxd5 cxd5 27. Rxc8 Bxc8 28. Be3 Rc7 |
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Mar-19-07
| | kutztown46: <amadeus 3/19:> Three 19... Qg5 lines: 19...Qg5 20.Nd7 fxg3 21.hxg3 Qxc1 22.Rfxc1 (+0.06, 19ply - Rybka 2.2n2) 19...Qg5 20.Nd7 Rf7 21.cxd5 exd5 22.Rxc6 Rxc6 23.Qxc6 fxg3 24.hxg3 Nxg3 25.fxg3 Qe3+ 26.Kh1 Qh6+ 27. Kg1 [draw] 19...Qg5 20.Nd7 Rf7 21.cxd5 exd5 22.Rxc6 Rxc6 23.Qxc6 fxg3 24.hxg3 Nxg3 25.Qa8+ Bf8 26.fxg3 Qe3+ 27.Kh1 Qh6+ 28.Kg1 [draw] |
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Mar-19-07
| | kutztown46: <TefthePersian 3/19:> Also, the position is not so simple, 19...Qg5 is actually not a bad response. I'm sure everyone's looked at the Rybka line 19...Qg5 20. f3 Nc5 21. gxf4 Rxf4 22. cxd5 Bxe5 23. dxe5 exd5 24. b4 Nb3 25. Qe3 Bc4 etc. Looks like a nice position. Black's pieces are unquestionably more active. The immediate 20. gxf4 meets with the same reply ...Rxf4 21. cxd5 exd5 22. f3 Bxe5 23. dxe5 Nc5 24. b4 Nb3 25. Qe3 Bc4 same thing. I suppose white's choices are e6 and Rxc4. 19...Qg5 20. Bf3 c5 21. cxd5 and again the light bishop is opened up, the darksquared bishop can make a pretty valuable exchange, and black's pieces are more active. Simply chasing the queen away 19...Qg5 20. Nf3 isn't convincing, as after 20...Qf5 or ...Qg6, black's making incremental progress in his attack. So this isn't one of those "obvious" votes, as far as I'm concerned. |
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Mar-19-07
| | kutztown46: After 19...Qg5, here are Fritz 9's top six choices for white on move 20 (15-ply): 20. gxf4 (.11), Nd7 (.00), Nd3 (-.20), f3 (-.26), Qd1 (-.27), Bh3 (-.40). Other moves that have been commented on are Bf3 and Nf3. Analysis has been posted for gxf4, Nd7 and f3 but nothing yet for Nd3, Qd1 and Bh3. I will spend the evening on Nd3. Can someone else analyze the 19...Qg5 20. Qd1 continuation, and can someone analyze 19...Qg5 20. Bh3? I am not yet saying that 19...Qg5 deserves our votes, but if it is to have any chance of acceptance, we need to analyze all reasonable white responses, or else ...Qg5 will be trashed by some. If you are willing, please post which line you intend to work on. |
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Mar-19-07
| | kutztown46: One of the possible replies to 19...Qg5 is 20. Nd3. Here is analysis for that line: 20. Nd3 (-.20/15) fxg3 (-.20/14)
21. hxg3 (-.13/14) Qf5 (-.15/14)
22. c5 (-.20/15) bxc5 (-.20/14)
23. dxc5 (-.20/13) Bb8 (-.23/15)
24. Bxe4 (-.13/14) dxe4 (-.08/15)
25. Nb4 (-.16/14) Bb5 (-.32/15)
26. Qe3 (-.38/14) a5 (-.32/14)
27. Na2 (-.11/14) Qh3 (-.39/14)
All moves top choice of Fritz 9 at the ply indicated. Our pawn structure is inferior but our pieces are placed better. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <isemeria 3/19:> 19...Qg5 for me. There are interesting possibilities after 19...Qg5. It is a means for inducing positional concessions on White's K-side before we have to exchange some material. Look at <Tef>'s lines on page 368, and see if you can improve for White. Hopefully <RandomVisitor> will show something on 19...Qg5 on his forum soon. Black pawn on c6 may become weak in some variations, but I haven't seen anything fatal yet. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <Dionyseus 3/19:> We can force a draw if needed: 19...Qg5 20.Nd7 Rf7 21.cxd5 exd5 22.Rxc6 Rxc6 23.Qxc6 fxg3 24.hxg3 Nxg3 and here we have two ways to force a draw: A) 25.Qa8+ Bf8 26.fxg3 Qe3+ 27.Kh1 Qh6 28.Kg1 Qe3+ 29.Kh1 Qh6+ white must accept the draw B) 25.fxg3 Qe3+ 26.Kh1 Qh6 27.Kg1 Qe3+ white must accept the draw All other alternatives for white at move 25 seems to give the advantage to black. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <renouve 3/19:> 19...Qg5 is probably the best move : 19...Qg5 20.Nd7 Rfd8 21.Ne5
and now 21...Bxe5 22.dxe5
and now 22...fxg3
and black play for win !
Rybka 2.3.1 : -0.04/19
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <renouve 3/19:> Analysis by me and rybka 2.3.1 32-bit for 19...Qg5 20.Nd7 :
After 20. Nd7, the best option for white is the draw. 19... Qg5 20. Nd7 Rfd8 (20... Rf7 21. cxd5 exd5 22. Rxc6 Rxc6 23. Qxc6 fxg3 24. hxg3 Nxg3 25. fxg3 Qe3+ 26. Kh1 Qh6+ 27. Kg1 =) 21. Ne5 Bxe5 22. dxe5 fxg3 23. fxg3 Qg6 24. Rf4 Rf8 25. Rh4 c5 26. cxd5 exd5 27. b4 Rcd8 28. bxc5 bxc5 29. a4 h6 30. a5 = |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <Deep Breath 3/19:> User: Dionyseus
Thanks for draw lines after Qg5. I'll have to look tomorrow. From <RandomVisitor> Monte Carlo Analysis 19...Bxe5 3124games 715white wins/ 1615draws/ 794black win: bwin 51.2% 19...Qg5 672games 141white win/ 327draws/ 204black win: bwin 54.7% 54.7% black win with Qg5? OK, stop the bandwagon. Qg5 has to be strongly considered. I don't have time now, but you got my attention. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <TefthePersian 3/19:> <Chessmaster333>: All other responses are inferior to 20. Nd7, so far.
<capafan>: <Dionesys> addressed 20...Rf7 in your line. There is also 20...Rfd8. 19...Qg5 20. Nd7 Rfd8 21. Ne5(cxd5 is impossible)
Here we can offer to repeat the position with 21...Rdf8 where he is forced to accept a draw or an inferior position, or play on with 21...Bxe5 22. dxe5 fxg3 23. fxg3 with a draw the most probable result. I prefer 20...Rf7. 20...Rf7 is, however, good for only perpetual check after 20. Nd7, but it is a quick perpetual check which is forced. So, we have to make a decision, force Yuri to draw or enter a perpetual position quickly! (assuming he makes no mistakes and stumbles along the way, regardless of choosing to defend an inferior position) or play on for an advantage with 19...Bxe5 20. dxe5 where our weakness at e6 (and e5) is holed up for the time being. 20...Nc5 21. cxd5 cxd5 22. b4 (and he plays it!) Nb3 (Hugin!) 23. Qd1 (Ah...Tab...no...I forget! Credit is due here!) Here the subtleties of queen vs. bishop placement evade me. I think there is no practical difference between Rxc2 Qxc2 or Rc4 Rc3 Rxc3 Bxc3 and Bc4. I suppose the second line offers some advantages in that his queen is not quite so good on d1 as it is on c2. However with the Rc4 Rc3 dance the queen is blocked on its file by our LSB. So it's really just a bishop. We have two! outposted pieces. One well outposted (the bishop) and the other could perhaps be relocated with 25. Bh3 a5 (not an absolute, just an idea) 26. Rd1 a4 27. Bg4 b5 (Bd4 is a clear route to simplification, but it looks pretty) and we can defend this position til the cows come home. So, I think the main advantage of ...Qg5 is quickness. It clarifies "draw or win" tendencies quickly, whereas ...Bxe5 leaves us defending what looks to be at least an equal endgame. Yuri's nature also figures in. If he's not content to draw with amateurs, the ...Qg5 lines are better. If he is, ...Bxe5 lines are better. Thing is, we don't know if he's a Tal/Fischer type player, or a Petrosian/Andersson type. Both moves are probably of equal objective merit. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <Themofro 3/19:> <Artar1: All of the work I have done on this position shows that 19...Bxe5 leads to a draw. Now, I can personally live with that. Also, 19...Bxe5 is safe and leaves White with doubled pawns on the e-file, a small positional concession at best. Nevertheless, Yury will have to play carefully to secure the draw, so I plan to vote for 19...Bxe5. If someone has compelling evidence for another move, please let me know.> Well I'm not sure how compelling this is, but it is at the very least a interesting and complicated line with several sacrifices, here is all the analysis i got from, note especially the main line of Qg5 and the final position where blak has sacked a pawn but has a very good position.
18. Nf3 Ne4
19. Ne5 Qg5 (19... Bxe5 20. dxe5 (20. Bxe4 Bxd4 21. Bxd4 e5 22. Be3 Qe6 23. Bd3 d4 24. Bd2 e4 $15 -0.40/17) 20... Nc5 21. cxd5 cxd5 22. Qd1 fxg3 23. hxg3 Qf7 24. Bd4 Ne4 $11 0.02/15) (19... fxg3 20. hxg3 (20. fxg3 Rxf1+ 21. Bxf1 c5 22. Bg2 Rf8 23. cxd5 exd5 24. b4 Bb7 $17 -0.77/13) 20... c5 21. Qe3 Nf6 22. Bh3 Rfe8 23. Rfc1 dxc4 24. Nxc4 cxd4 $11 -0.11/15) (19... c5 20. Bxe4 (20. gxf4 Qh4 21. dxc5 Nxc5 22. Qe3 dxc4 23. b4 Na4 24. Qh3 Qxh3 $11 -0.02/15) 20... cxd4 21. Bxd4 dxe4 22. gxf4 Qh4 23. e3 Rf6 24. Qd1 Rd8 $14 0.33/14) 20. Nd7 ( 20. Kh1 c5 21. gxf4 Rxf4 22. e3 Bxe5 23. dxe5 Rh4 24. Bxe4 dxe4 $15 -0.41/16) 20... Rfd8 21. Ne5 Rf8 22. gxf4 Rxf4 23. cxd5 exd5 24. Rxc6 Rcf8 $15 -0.27/14And this is where the analysis ended, however, i liked blacks position a lot, but wasn't completely convinced that it would be worth it in the long run, so i continued the game, with me playing the black side vs. Fritz on the white side. 25. Qe3 Bxe5 -0.19/8 26. dxe5 0.35/11 Bxe2 -0.47/9 27. Qxe2 -1.98/12 Rxf2 -1.98/11 28. Rxf2 -1.89/10 Rxf2 -2.13/10 29. Qxf2 -2.13/9 Nxf2 -2.13/9 30. Kxf2 -2.13/9 Qd2+ -2.13/9 31. Kf1 -2.13/10 Qxb2 -2.13/10 32. Bxd5+ -2.13/11 Kf8 -2.13/10 33. Rc8+ -2.13/9 Ke7 -1.96/7 34. Rc7+ -1.96/7 Ke8 -1.96/7 35. Rxa7 -2.02/6 Qxe5 -2.09/6 36. Bf7+ -2.07/6 Kd8 -2.25/7 37. Bg8 -2.48/6 Qxh2 -2.43/5 38. a4 -2.71/6 Qf4+ -2.84/6 39. Kg2 -2.93/6 Qg4+ -2.93/5 40. Kh1 -3.59/6 h5 -3.60/6 41. Kh2 -3.81/6 h4 -3.95/7 42. b4 -3.77/6 b5 -4.61/5 43. Ra8+ -4.81/6 Kc7 -4.53/5 44. Ra5 -4.60/6 Qe2+ -5.52/5 45. Kh1 -5.53/4 bxa4 -6.30/5 0-1 Whether or not his analysis will hold is unknowable to me right now, but i think it is very important and wish people to consider it, instead of automatically playing Bxe5, which will most likely lead to a draw, which is acceptable, however if there is something better, such as this line might be, then we should take this line instead. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <renouve 3/20:> 19...Qg5 20.Nd7 is the best responce after my analysis. And it's proved that white can not have more than a draw.
19...Qg5 20.gxf4? Rxf4 21.cxd5 exd5 22.f3 Rcf8
19...Qg5 20.Nd3 fxg3 21.hxg3 Qf5 22.Qe3 Nf6 and black are better. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 91 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
A majority vote for 1-0 means we resign. 