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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 91 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Mar-20-07
 | | kutztown46: <isemeria 3/20:> Again, I agree with <TefthePersian> about 19...Qg5. If GMYS doesn't accept the draw, he has to weaken his position. (And personally I think that a draw would be good result for the World in this game.) |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <sebakaw 3/20:> ...Qg5 in DeepFritz10 looks drawish. ...Qg5 20.Nd7 and:
20...Rfd8 21.Ne5 Rf8
= (0.00) Depth: 16/16 00:00:03 9936kN
20...Rfd8 21.Ne5 Rf8
= (0.00) Depth: 17/17 00:00:12 39704kN
20...Rfd8 21.Ne5 Rf8
= (0.00) Depth: 18/41 00:01:55 373mN
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <isemeria 3/20:> <sebakaw: ...Qg5 in DeepFritz10 looks drawish.>
We need to think a bit further about the implications of this, and not just label it "drawish". What are White's alternatives here? a) White can accept the draw by repetition, and we are happy to draw with Black. b) White does not want to draw, so he has to choose a weaker move instead of repetition. And these alternatives to repetition we should analyse, in order to be able to compare 19...Bxe5 and 19...Qg5. To what extent we are willing to avoid draw, if it means not playing the best moves? This is a general question, I don't know which is best 19...Bxe5 or 19...Qg5. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <TheDestruktor 3/20:> I`m with almost no internet access for a few days, so this is what I can contribute for now.
I spent several hours reading everything that was posted about the line with 19...Bxe5 and 20...Nc5, as well as conducting analysis of my own. I am convinced of two things: a) This line guarantees a small but existing advantage for black; and b)The line also conducts to positions where it is not easy to convert this advantage into a win. I am reluctant to call this line “drawish”, because the resulting positions can be quite complex. But, based on what I saw, my opinion is that we should consider it not as the “main line”, but as a “reserve line”. I think that we should use the time until we move to explore other lternatives. And, if we do not find other line with more winning chances, we can play 19...Bxe5. In my opinion, there are two alternatives that must be seriously considered. The first is 19...Qg5. The second is 19...fxg3 followed by 20...c5. I will post my analysis for both alternatives below. The option 19...Qg5, as far as I could see, is very promissing against any alternative for white, except 20.Nd7. Unfortunately, I could not find a good coninuation for black after 20.Nd7. As far as could see, the game would end either in repetition, or perpetual check, or complete equality. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <TheDestruktor 3/20:> ANALYSIS FOR 19...Qg5 Main line:
19...Qg5 20.Nd7. As far as I could see, this move ould be followed by: - Repetition: 20...Rfd8 21.Ne5 Rf8
- Perpetual check: 20...Rf7 21.cxd5 exd5 22.Rxc6 Rxc6 23.Qxc6 fxg3 24.hxg3 Nxg3 25.fxg3 Qe3+ 26.Kh1 Qh6+ - Equality: 20...Rfd8 21.Ne5 Bxe5 22.dxe5 fxg3 (22...Nc5) 23.fxg3 Qg6 24.Bxe4 Qxe4 25.Rf4 Qg6 26.c5 bxc5 27.Rxc5 Rb8 28.Rxc6 Bxe2 0.00 I could not find na improvement for black in the lines above. Other alternatives for white seem to favor black.
a) 20.gxf4 Rxf4 21.cxd5 exd5 22.Rxc6 Rcf8 23.Rxd6 Nxd6 24.Qc6 Qe7 25.Bc3 Bxe2 26.Bb4 Bxf1 27.Bxd6–+ -1.59/16 ; b) 20.cxd5 cxd5 21.gxf4 Qh4 22.b4 Rxc2 23.Qxc2 Bxe5 -0.78/16 µ; c) 20.Bxe4 dxe4 21.Kh1 c5 22.gxf4 Rxf4 23.Rg1 Qf5 -0.75/15 µ; d) 20.e3 fxg3 21.fxg3 Rxf1+ 22.Bxf1 Bxe5 23.dxe5 dxc4 -1.16/16 µ; e) 20.Nf3 Qg6 21.c5 Bb8 (21...bxc5 22.dxc5 Bc7) -0.58 ³ ; |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: Here is my analysis of 19...Qg5 20. Qd1 which has not been written about yet. Qd1 is Fritz 9's 5th choice for white on move 20.
20. Qd1 (-.27/15) Bxe5 (-.23/14)
21. dxe5 (-.29/12) fxg3 (-.27/14)
22. hxg3 (-.23/11) Nc5 (-.27/15)
23. cxd5 (-.27/14) exd5 (-.27/14)
24. b4 (-.27/13) Ne6 (.08/16)
25. Qc1 (.33/14) Qh5 (.00/15)
26. Rxc6 (.10/16) Qxe2 (.32/20)
27. Rxc8 (.18/17) Rxc8 (.10/12)
28. Qd1 (.31/18) Qxb2 (.32/17)
All moves were the top choice of Fritz 9 at the ply indicated. This position looks even, but the evaluations shifted to white's favor after move 24. This sub-variation will have to be improved upon from the black point of view. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <izimbra 3/20:>
After Qg5, GMYS will surely see that Nd7 either leads to a draw by repetition or a slightly inferior position for black. But in fact, I also disagree with the claim that white is necessarily worse in the lines after f3 - e.g. 19...Qg5 20 f3 Nc5 21. gxf4 Rxf4 22. cxd5 Bxe5 23. dxe5 exd5 24. b4 Na4 25. Bd4 Qf5 26. Rd1 and white is better. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <TefthePersian 3/20:> <izimbra>: Black plays 24...Nb3.
"f3 - e.g. 19...Qg5 20 f3 Nc5 21. gxf4 Rxf4 22. cxd5 Bxe5 23. dxe5 exd5 24. b4 Na4 25. Bd4 Qf5 26. Rd1 and white is better." 24...Nb3 25. Qe3 Bc4 26. e6 (Rd1 Re8) Re8 27. Be5 Rxe6 28. fxg5 Rxe5 29. Rf4 Rxg5 30. e3 h6 and it's a draw. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <TefthePersian 3/20:> I think it boils down to whether or not we want our draw now, or later. If we want our draw later, ...Bxe5. If we want our draw now, ...Qg5.
The line 19. Ne5 Qg5 20. Nd7 Rfd8 21. Ne5 Bxe5 22. dxe5 fxg3 23. fxg3 Qg6 24. Rf4 c5 25. Bxe4 (or cxd5 exd5) does allow us to fight on after ...Qg5, and doesn't seem any worse than what 19...Bxe5 offers. Rybka gives us a hairline (-.05) advantage. Probably meaningless, just like the mildly negative scores of the 19...Bxe5 20. dxe5 lines are probably meaningless. (Though admittedly those are -.08 or -.09, a staggering advantage! :P) This move choice is all psychology. Unfortunately we don't know our opponent. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <izimbra 3/20:> ... And in the line <19...Qg5 20. Nd7 Rfd8 21. Ne5 Bxe5 22. dxe5 fxg3 23. fxg3 Qg6 24. Rf4 c5 25. Bxe4> why not 25.cxd5 exd5 26. Bh3? And why do you think black has any advantage? |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: Status of analysis of 19...Qg5:
11 different white 20th moves have been mentioned. I will deal with each in rough order of increasing complexity. 20. Bh3 - no analysis yet (that's simple!)
20. cxd5, Bxe4, e3, Nf3 - one line for each presented by <TheDestruktor>, showing advantage to black. 20. Bf3 was commented on by <TefthePersian>, claiming advantage to black. Tef also commented on 20. Nf3. 20. Qd1 - I analyzed this last night. It started out good for black but then turned to a slight white advantage. Improvements for black need to be found. 20. Nd3 - I analyzed this last night and came up with an unclear position where Fritz rates it better for black but black has an ugly pawn structure. A different line was then mentioned by <renouve> (different white 22nd move) and stated black is better. Black improvements from my analysis would be helpful. 20. f3 - First, <TefthePersian> quoted a line and said good for black. Then, <izimbra> quoted a line with a different black 24th move and said good for white. Then Tef came back to his original line but went further and this time said it's a draw. We need black improvements in this line. 20. gxf4 - there have been a number of posts on this. Within the last hour, <Themofro> made a lengthy post which appears to show that black is OK in this line. 20. Nd7 - this is the most complicated and has had the most discussion. First, <izimbra> quoted a line with 20...fxg3 and said good for black. Then <amadeus> quoted three different lines. The first was a 20...fxg3 line with a white improvement downstream. The other two used 20...Rf7 and draws were claimed. This was echoed by <Dionyseus>. Then <renouve> found 20...Rfd8 which is an improvement. His line also had 21...Bxe5. Then <Themofro> found 21...Rf8 and quoted an entire game, which black won. 21...Rf8 was then acknowledged by <sebakaw> and <TheDestruktor> but both of them claim the position is even, despite analysis by <Themofro>. Finally, there was debate back and forth by <izimbra> and <TefthePersian>, both speaking of draws but both focused back on 21...Bxe5. If <Themofro> is correct in his analysis, then 20. Nd7 is OK for black. Summary: In order for 19...Qg5 to be taken seriously by the team, I believe the following things need to happen by tomorrow morning: 1) Someone needs to look at 20. Bh3 and show it's OK for black. 2) Someone needs to find a black improvement in the 20. Qd1 line. 3) The 20. Nd3 analysis is shaky. Someone needs to show that black is OK here. 4) Improvements for black need to be found in the 20. f3 line. 5) <Themofro> needs to restate his analysis in the 20. Nd7 line, showing that black is OK. His analysis appears to have been overlooked. This is a lot to do and I'm only one person. I'll work on 20. f3 tonight. If you plan to help, please post on my forum which line you plan to work on so we don't have duplication of effort. |
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| Mar-20-07 | | Themofro: Kutztown thank you for the helpful summary. I have reposted my analysis on the main page as per your request. In the Nd7 line white seems to be forced to either take the perpetual or go into a bad (losing?) position. I personally (and it seems many others) would be happy with the draw and why not? We're playing against a GM as BLACK and would have forced him to admit that he has nothing more than a draw after a little over 20 moves, whats wrong with that? =) Also, Kutztown i'll try to analyse Bh3. |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <<TefthePersian 3/20:> <izimbra>: Black plays 24...Nb3. "f3 - e.g. 19...Qg5 20 f3 Nc5 21. gxf4 Rxf4 22. cxd5 Bxe5 23. dxe5 exd5 24. b4 Na4 25. Bd4 Qf5 26. Rd1 and white is better."
24...Nb3 25. Qe3 Bc4 26. e6 (Rd1 Re8) Re8 27. Be5 Rxe6 28. fxg5 Rxe5 29. Rf4 Rxg5 30. e3 h6 and it's a draw.> This may be an improvement:
27...Rg4 (not Rxe6) 28. Qxg5 Rxg5 29. f4 Rxe6 30. fxg5 Rxe5 31. Rd1 Rxg5 (-.20/14) Black has two pawns and a knight for the rook.
click for larger viewWhat do you think? Is this enough to rescue the 20. f3 variation of 19...Qg5? Oh, by the way, 22. cxd5 is probably not best. Fritz 9 prefers four other moves here for white. Top choice is dxc5 (-.32 vs. -.70 for cxd5). |
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Mar-20-07
| | kutztown46: <TefthePersian 3/20:> A stab at 19...Qg5 20. Bh3 Eeps. There should be some lines here.
19...Qg5 20. Bh3 Qh6 21. Bg2 Bxe5 22. dxe5 Nc5 23. Rc3 Rcd8 24. Rf3 fxg3 25. Qxh6 and analysis doesn't need to go any farther. The position of the queen after Bh3 is precarious, so while I'm sure this position is drawn, it means 20...Qh6 is not our best reply. 20. Bh3 Rce8 21. Bg2 Bxe5 22. dxe5 fxg3 23. hxg3 (Qxg5 actually gives us a larger advantage here, as taking the pawn with gxf(h?)2 does not spoil our kingside pawn structure) Qf5 24. cxd5 cxd5 25. Bd4 (now possible) Rec8 26. Rxc8 Rxc8 27. Qe3 (pawns + pressure on our queenside pawns) h6 28. a4 Rc2 29. Re1 Kf7 -.35/18.
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| Mar-20-07 | | Themofro: <Kutztown> Initially Fritz chose Qh6 as well, but upon further analysis i discovered Rce8 which gives us a huge advantage in my analysis. Bh3 is nothing to be afraid of. I'm just about done with my analysis, will post the lines when I'm done. |
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| Mar-20-07 | | Themofro: As promised here is my analysis as to what happens after Bh3, it is nothing to fear, notice for example the huge, almost a winning advantage that we get at the end of the main line. 18. Nf3 Ne4
19. Ne5 Qg5 (19... Bxe5 20. dxe5 (20. Bxe4 Bxd4 21. Bxd4 e5 22. Be3 Qe6 23. Bd3
d4 24. Bd2 e4 $15 -0.40/17) 20... Nc5 21. cxd5 cxd5 22. Qd1 fxg3 23. hxg3 Qf7
24. Bd4 Ne4 $11 0.02/15) (19... fxg3 20. hxg3 (20. fxg3 Rxf1+ 21. Bxf1 c5 22.
Bg2 Rf8 23. cxd5 exd5 24. b4 Bb7 $17 -0.77/13) 20... c5 21. Qe3 Nf6 22. Bh3
Rfe8 23. Rfc1 dxc4 24. Nxc4 cxd4 $11 -0.11/15) (19... c5 20. Bxe4 (20. gxf4
Qh4 21. dxc5 Nxc5 22. Qe3 dxc4 23. b4 Na4 24. Qh3 Qxh3 $11 -0.02/15) 20...
cxd4 21. Bxd4 dxe4 22. gxf4 Qh4 23. e3 Rf6 24. Qd1 Rd8 $14 0.33/14) 20. Bh3
Rce8 (20... Qh6 21. Bg2 (21. Bg4 Bxe5 22. dxe5 Qg6 23. Bf3 Ng5 24. Qd1 dxc4 25.
bxc4 Rcd8 $19 -1.46/16) 21... c5 22. dxc5 Nxc5 23. cxd5 Nxb3 24. Qd1 fxg3 25.
hxg3 Rcd8 $11 0.00/15) 21. Nxc6 (21. Bg2 c5 22. gxf4 Rxf4 23. e3 Bxe5 24.
dxe5 Rf3 25. Kh1 Ref8 $19 -3.69/17) 21... dxc4 22. bxc4 Qg6 23. Ne5 Bxe5 24.
dxe5 fxg3 25. fxg3 Bb7 $17 -0.97/17 1/2-1/2
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Mar-22-07
| | kutztown46: ,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./
Beginning of discussion on forum organizational matters
,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./,./ |
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| Mar-22-07 | | Dionyseus: <kutztown46> Thanks for taking this task. I will provide analysis of 20...Nc5 21.cxd5 in my forum header. |
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| Mar-24-07 | | Artar1: You're doing a wonderful job! Thanks for taking over! |
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| Mar-26-07 | | jepflast: <kutztown46>
Since Dionyseus's forum will probably be mostly handling the main line, 21...cxd5 22. b4 Nb3, I will set up my forum for <22...Ne4> to help with some of the burden. |
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Mar-27-07
 | | Tabanus: Hello <kutztown46>. To your question in <Dionyseus>'s forum I think maybe your six top lines should all be studied (if possible) in that forum. At least for now. Regarding 21...cxd5 22.b4 Nb3 23.Qd1 Rc4 I think it would be a good idea to split in two forums already now: 24.Bxd5 in one forum, and the rest (24.Rc3 etc.) in another (GoldenKnight's). User <izimbra> said earlier we should have a 24.Bxd5 forum and that he was willing to host this. |
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| Mar-29-07 | | Elixir of Life: <It would be a monumental task, but I would love to see someone create an index of all the variations being discussed, along with who commented on each and on what page of what forum (or the main page). I would do it but I know I don't have the time. It would probably take 10-20 hours to put together and then an hour or two daily to keep it up to date. If any premium member who would rather do this than analysis, please speak up. <ElixirofLife>, is this something that would interest you?> <Kutztown> I would like to take up the task, but I'm very busy these days, and most of my time can only be spent on weekends,(afterall, I'm just a 13 year old middle school student in China - a country known for providing bucket loads of homework) but perhaps you could describe this task in more detail? And maybe I could shape it to fit my schedule? |
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| Apr-01-07 | | Elixir of Life: Should we set up a separate forum for <23. Qd1 Rxc2 24. Qxc2 Bc4>? |
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| Apr-01-07 | | Elixir of Life: Correction: Should we set up separate forums for 25th candidate white moves after <23. Qd1 Rxc2 24. Qxc2 Bc4>? |
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| Apr-01-07 | | Elixir of Life: And perhaps we should merge (or perhaps altogether delete) <Analysis of 23. Qd1 Rc4 24. Bxd5> and <Analysis of 23. Qd1 Rc4 24. others>, as they seem to have fallen out of favor, and are no longer considered mainlines. I think <23...Rxc2> has taken their place |
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A majority vote for 1-0 means we resign. 