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|Mar-06-04|| ||drukenknight: Indeed I am quite taken w/ myself Gilber. |
|Mar-06-04|| ||bumpmobile: Incidentally, why do people insist on calling you druNkenknight. Though I have no idea what it means, the name is drukenknight. |
|Mar-06-04|| ||Sneaky: He *meant* to type "drunkenknight" when he signed up... but you see... he was drunk. ;-)|
Incidentally, do you know what a "drunken knight" is? It's an opening variation where a knight gets chased all over the board, such as 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 etc., and the most famous of all, Alekhine's Defense 1.e4 Nf6
|Mar-06-04|| ||Sneaky: By the way, I think that DK's whole line is no good, because 59.♖e3+ ♖e5 wins for Black, as 60.♖xe5 ♔xe5 and Black can get in front of the pawn without opposition. |
|Mar-06-04|| ||drukenknight: [sigh] again I am forced to correct the record.
Pt. 1. No a drunken knight is not that, it is a knight that starts off in the unnatural position on the rim, e.g. Nh3, Na3, Na6 or Nh6. While they dont look right, sometimes you can make use of them in closed positions such as Benoni, Dutch.
Pt. 2 Yes Sneaky is correct on epistymology of "drukenknight"
Pt. 3 While Sneaky brings up a good pt about end game play, white has no intention of exchanging rooks which would be disastrous, I think it should go:
59. Re3+ Re5 (the sneaky variation) 60. Rb3 f5 61. Rb6+ Kd5 62. Rb4 ...?
|Mar-06-04|| ||Sneaky: I revise my analysis.
59. Re3+ Kf5 60. Re1 Kg5 61. Rg1+ Kh4!
62. Rf1 f5 63. Kc3 Kg3 64. Kc4 Re5
65. Kd4 Ra5
analysis courtesty of http://chess.jaet.org/cgi-bin/dtx?f...
It is indeed won for Black in all variations. So it's not so easy to draw Alekhine after all.
|Mar-07-04|| ||drukenknight: I went to that website link you give and all I can say is what the Fahhhh....???? |
|Mar-07-04|| ||drukenknight: Hey Sneaky, any decent club player can see that 60 Re1 is a duffer's move designed to rig the entire analysis in ALek's favor. Why dont you ask those aliens on whatever planet that website is from to comment on: |
59. Re3+ Kf5
60. Kc3! Kg4
61. Re4+ Kf3
|Mar-08-04|| ||Cyphelium: After 59. Re3+ Kf5 60. Kc3 Kg4 61. Re4+ Kf3 62. Re1 f5, how can white defend? The king is cut off and there are just a bunch of checks left before the f-pawn will queen. For example 62. Rf1+ Ke2 63. Kc4 Re5 64. Ra1 f4 65. Kd4 Re8 66. Ra2+ Kf1 67. Ra1+ Kf2 68. Ra2+ Re2 - + or whatever. |
|Mar-08-04|| ||drukenknight: okay Cyph: 62...f5 63 Kc4
this endgame features very curious K maneuvers, not all what we normally expect from R/P endgames, but this is understandable due to the K being a little too far from the pawn when the endgame begins.
Back to you Cyph....
|Mar-10-04|| ||Cyphelium: <dk> (59. Re3+ Kf5 60. Kc3 Kg4 61. Re4+ Kf3 62. Re1 f5) On 63. Kc4, then 63.- Rd2 looks alright. 64. Rf1+ Rf2 or 64. Kc3 Re2 65. Rf1+ Ke4 wins. |
|Mar-10-04|| ||drukenknight: Cyph: what continuation do you see after:
59. Re3+ Kf5
60. Kc3 Kg4
61. Re4+ Kf3
62. Re1 f5
63. Kc4 Rd2
64 Kc3 Re2
65. Rf1+ Ke4
|Mar-12-04|| ||Cyphelium: <dk> After that I suggest 66.- f4. I don't see how white can defend against f4-f3-f2 etc. Putting the rook on the last row doesn't help: 66.- f4 67. Ra8 Ke3! and the f-pawn will reach f1. Perhaps you thought about 67.- f3? which actually is a draw after 68. Re8+ Kf4 69. Rxe2 fxe2 70. Kd2 Kf3 71. Ke1. |
|Mar-12-04|| ||drukenknight: dont worry about my moves worry about your moves, what comes after: 66…f4 67. Ra8 Ke3 68. Re8+ ? |
|Mar-12-04|| ||Sneaky: What are you knuckleheads talking about? I already showed you the tablebase analysis, and tablebase is never wrong.|
At the end of DK's long line <59. Re3+ Kf5 60. Kc3 Kg4 61. Re4+ Kf3 62. Re1 f5 63. Kc4 Rd2 64. Kc3 Re2 65. Rf1+ Ke4 66. Ra1 f4 67. Ra8 Ke3 68. Re8+> Tablebase suggests 68...Kf2 (duh) and the pawn is coming home. It's a pretty basic "king is cut off" R+P ending, isn't it?
Now here's how you use tablebase. Here's the position after 68...Kf2
Whatever move you want White to play from there, click on it. Then you see a bunch of moves that Black can play. The GREEN moves are the best moves. Yellow moves are just as good as green, except that they're slower.
|Mar-12-04|| ||drukenknight: Explaining how the web site works does help, but still I do not see any green moves, I do not see any yellow moves. All I see are moves that are highlighted in blue such as Rd8, Rg8 etc. I guess they are clickable, Then I see a column that says:|
DTC DTM DTZ and DTZ50
and there are numbers in some or all of the columns.
What does that mean? Am I supposed to use the column to choose my move? What does dtc, dtm, and dtz mean? Is there a help section for the website? I wish these websites could explain themselves or provide help link.
|Mar-12-04|| ||drukenknight: Oh by the way, yes it does look the game is lost in theory since the K is cut off one too many files over. Most of these endings, blacks R will block the R check and whites K will not be able to get over to catch the pawn. Hence the white K is too many files away. |
But that's theory and I want to see for myself that the game is really lost.
|Mar-12-04|| ||Sneaky: When I say "green moves" I mean moves that are on a row of the table that have green color.|
DTM = Depth to Mate (as in "mate in 11")
DTC = Depth to Conversion (# of moves before it converts into a different type of ending. E.g., in this case ♖♙v♖ will soon turn into either ♖♕v♖ or ♖v♕.)
Then there are two columns to impliment the 50 move rule:
DTZ = Depth to Zeroing Move (how many moves before either a capture or a pawn-push takes place)
DTZ50 = Like DTZ, but treats >50 moves as drawn
So you see, in the diagrammed position here http://chess.jaet.org/cgi-bin/dtx?f... it's mate in 25 moves no matter what White does.
|Mar-12-04|| ||drukenknight: okay would it be fair to simply click on the move listed at the top, as the "best chance" or at least drags it out the longest? |
I agree the game looks lost so in that case the question becomes where did he lose the game?
|Mar-12-04|| ||drukenknight: How Dumb is your computer Program, chapter 37.....
well that explains a lot, that depth to mate is 25 moves no matter if he plays 69 Rd8, 69 Ra8, 69 Rg8 69 Rany8...
Funny. I kept running through the crappy chesslab computer. I would play e..g 69 Rg8 and after x moves I would see problems so I would go back each move and see if the computer would choose the same move. Lo and behold every time I came back to move 69 the freakin computer would choose a different move? NO kidding, I mean I think I went through four or five sequeences and every time I went back up the line to move 69 I kept getting a different move!
Sheesh. Freakin chesslab computer, I hate you!
Okay what does that "Legend: optimal, slower, etc." on the bottom of the page mean? I have nothing to correlate that to. Is there supposed to be a symbol or somethign that stands for optimal? Cause otherwise it's just a string of words w/o meaning.
|Mar-12-04|| ||Sneaky: I think the legend is fairly easy to understand. The optimal move (green) for the side that's winning is the move that wins the quickest--for the side that's losing, it's the move that drags it out the longest. Yellow moves are slower-winning (or faster-losing) than the green moves, but really they are of the same worth. Some moves in red are bad, they throw away a half-point (drawing a won position or losing a drawn position). Other moves are very bad, they are in black, they turn a win into a loss. More info is available here: http://chess.jaet.org/endings/ |
|Mar-12-04|| ||Cyphelium: <dk> (59. Re3+ Kf5 60. Kc3 Kg4 61. Re4+ Kf3 62. Re1 f5 63. Kc4 Rd2 64 Kc3 Re2 65. Rf1+ Ke4 66. Ra1 f4 67. Ra8 Ke3) and now you suggest 68. Re8+. I don't think you need me to tell you that this is a trivial win. 68.- Kf2. Now 68.- Rxe2 is just lost of course. So instead 69. Rf7 f3. White's king cannot approach, if it ever threatens black's rook you'll just put it on e7 or somewhere else, just make sure that it holds the e-file. A very useful standard technique. So then it's really about the king on f2, can it bring the f-pawn down to f1 without getting checked all the time? Yes, like this: 70. Rf7 Kg2 71. Rg7+ Kf1 72. Rf7 f2 73. Rf8 (or Rh7) Ke1 and there are no useful checks - the pawn reaches f1. In that variation white just moved the rook, but now when you see the idea you can make sure yourself that moving the king doesn't make any difference. |
|Mar-12-04|| ||drukenknight: Yes yes, cyph, the game is lost at least by move 59, the problem is the basic endgame problem of the K too far away. Thanks for your help. |
THe real question is where was the game lost? Back on move 53? move 42? hmm...
|May-05-09|| ||whiteshark: Game related picture taken after <12.c3>: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...|
Source: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... (no. 5648)
|May-05-09|| ||Calli: Maybe 45.Rh8+ Kg7 46.Rb8 is better?|
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