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| Feb-03-10 |
| Ratul: My knowledge about chess and chess history is much more limited than many others here. But why exactly did Alekhine not give Capa a rematch after 1927? Bogoljubov and Ewe were hardly the most deserving of candidates. the latter shocked him, but I think Alekhine picked them as easy meat. Alekhine was a great player, but I feel he churlishly ran away from Capablanca. His memory will always be tinged by that shame. |
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| Feb-03-10 |
| beatgiant: <Ratul>
Alekhine's official reason is that Capablanca never raised a serious amount of money to provide the stakes for a match. Whether legitimate or just an excuse has been debated here ad infinitum in previous posts. |
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| Feb-03-10 |
| Deus Ex Alekhina: Back then it was common for a world champion to avoid all of the most serious contenders & pick patsies as opponents; remaining world champion engendered higher fees, etc. Alekhine also stipulated that if he were invited to a tournament he would not come if Capa was invited. |
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| Feb-03-10 |
| beatgiant: <Deus Ex Alekhina>
Alekhine's official reason for the personal rift between him and Capablanca is that Capablanca proposed to a third party to change the conditions for a rematch behind his back. Again, it's been debated ad infinitum.Alekhine did not stipulate that he would not come to a tournament if Capa were invited. He did stipulate that he would double his appearance fee, which had the same effect. His official reason was that a tournament would be more commercially valuable if it had both Alekhine and Capa, but I don't think many accept this as legitimate. Of course, if Capa were in the same tournament with him, Alekhine would have to work much harder to come in first and also avoid a loss in his individual game with Capa. In other words, it was poor sportsmanship. |
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| Feb-03-10 |
| AnalyzeThis: <Alekhine's official reason is that Capablanca never raised a serious amount of money to provide the stakes for a match. Whether legitimate or just an excuse has been debated here ad infinitum in previous posts.> He didn't want much. Just get 10,000 in gold during the height of the great depression. Meanwhile he played a clown twice, and a guy that Capa had easily defeated in match play, for less money. The mark of a true champion is to run away from a challenge. |
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| Feb-03-10 |
| beatgiant: <AnalyzeThis>
Well, I know two wrongs don't make a right, but Capa demanded the same while he was champion, during the economic crisis in Europe - thus preventing matches with worthy contenders like Rubinstein and Spielmann, for example. |
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Feb-04-10
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| gezafan: A couple of points regarding Alekhine and Capablanca. Capablanca helped arrange for the financing of the match with Alekhine. Alekhine never did the same for Capablanca. Alekhine refused to play in tournaments with Capablanca. He, in effect, banned Capablanca. Capablanca never did this to Alekhine. |
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| Feb-04-10 |
| beatgiant: <gezafan>
<Capablanca helped arrange for the financing of the match with Alekhine.>Not as far as I know. Have you got a source for that? <Alekhine refused to play in tournaments with Capablanca.> As I said above, he asked for a higher appearance fee, which I agree was unsporting. |
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| Feb-04-10 |
| FHBradley: The Aljechin-Capablanca rematch issue has been discussed on these pages for quite a few times. I believe that when the evidence is examined, it turns out not only that Aljechin avoided the rematch ('ducked Capablanca', as some people say) but also that Capablanca avoided it, too. |
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Feb-04-10
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| chancho: <beatgiant: Not as far as I know. Have you got a source for that?> That's mentioned in Whyld and Hooper's book: The Oxford Companion to Chess, although people here have disputed that info. |
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| Feb-04-10 |
| beatgiant: <chanco>
Thanks. Could you paraphrase exactly what it says? At most, I could imagine that some Capa fans raised money for the match hoping to see another triumph like Havana 1921. |
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Feb-04-10
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| chancho: <beatgiant> It says on the Capablanca entry on the Oxford Companion to Chess: <Capablanca and Alekhine agreed to a match, having raised the stakes by their <<joint influence in Argentina>>, the match took place towards the end of 1927.> The Argentines would have been behind Capa in the Buenos Aires title match. They may well have worked with him and Alekhine to organize and raise the funds for the match, but as far as offering that as real solid evidence of their jointly working together, I would not go that far. |
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| Feb-04-10 |
| beatgiant: <chanco>
Thanks again. To me, that sounds pretty consistent with the idea that chess fans raised the money. |
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| Feb-04-10 |
| Deus Ex Alekhina: Altho I am relying on my faulty memory here, I believe that both Capa & Alekhine may have requested certain players not to be invited to tournaments. Yates, Nimzovich, Znosko-Borovsky, & Bernstein (not Osip) are names I have possibly read. But it may be just gossip, especially if Koltanowsky is the source. |
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Feb-04-10
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| TheFocus: Capablanca did ban Kostic from his tournaments. This was after their match in 1919. I forgot why. |
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| Feb-05-10 |
| beatgiant: <Deus Ex Alekhina><TheFocus>
The chessgames.com database does show some tournament games between Capa and Yates, Nimzovich, and Znosko-Borovsky while Capa was champion, so your memory must be faulty about them. I don't see any games between Capa and J. Bernstein or B. Kostic while Capa was champion, but given the wipeout record in favor of Capa versus these two opponents, he obviously had no fear of them. I've never heard of Capa banning opponents from his tournaments, but even if he did, it wouldn't make it right. |
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Feb-05-10
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| TheFocus: <beatgiant> I don't know about any of those others, but Winter mentions the case about Kostic. Kostic was a strong player, but Capablanca had some falling out with him for some reason, and would not play against him again after the Hastings Victory Tournament of 1919.
I have never heard of J. Bernstein being banned. He was no threat to Capablanca. |
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| Feb-05-10 |
| beatgiant: <TheFocus>
Do you happen to have a link or citation about the Winter article? Or better yet, a novelistic interpretation of these events? ;-) |
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Feb-05-10
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| TheFocus: <beatgiant> I will try to look it up over the weekend. It is in Winter's book about Capablanca. I don't go on-line on the weekend. |
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| Feb-05-10 |
| beatgiant: <TheFocus>
Thanks. Take your time. Anyway, that's really more a topic for the Capablanca page. It's not as if Alekhine cited the Capablanca-Kostic precedent.Getting back on topic, if the standard for a pre-FIDE champion is that he should take on all the best challengers for whatever stakes can be easily raised at the time, I think only Steinitz would measure up. Of course, he died in poverty. |
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Feb-07-10
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| blazerdoodle: Now I may be wrong, but it sounded to me as if Alekhine didn't give Capa the rematch because he'd been insulted. Capa treated him as if he were still the contender, sent a 3rd person to give him orders etc. It's a long blog to go back and find out where I read it. Lol. |
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| Feb-07-10 |
| beatgiant: <blazerdoodle>
Alekhine actually accepted a challenge by Capablanca but it fell through after repeated postponements by Capablanca.Check out <New York Times> archive of March 1931 http://spiderbites.nytimes.com/pay_... where we see the headline, <Alekhine Accepts Capablanca's Challenge To Play for World's Chess Championship>. I think it's pretty clear that the match fell through for financial reasons. |
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| Feb-07-10 |
| kurtrichards: Too lazy to check it out but <I think it's pretty clear that the match fell through for financial reasons.> |
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Feb-08-10
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| blazerdoodle: Then it's not true that Alekhine held him off. He couldn't get the money? Is it true that Capa actually helped Alekhine get the funds for their match, but wasn't reciprocated by Alekhine later? |
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| Feb-08-10 |
| beatgiant: <blazerdoodle>
See discussion above. The source claimed, <Capablanca and Alekhine agreed to a match, having raised the stakes by their <<joint influence in Argentina>>, the match took place towards the end of 1927.>Alekhine gave many exhibitions in Argentina. But match sponsors probably expected Capablanca to win, so maybe that's where the <joint> part comes in. As for <reciprocating>, if Alekhine actually had the ability to raise thousands for a chess match with the snap of his fingers, there's a good chance this match and several others would have happened. |
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