< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 37 OF 37 ·
|Oct-26-14|| ||perfidious: In that poster's case, generally invisible, until I selectively employ the search feature, for I've no desire to consistently read the scrawling of CG's point man for the BNP.|
|Oct-26-14|| ||Absentee: I mean I have the impression that MissScarlett and RedShield are the same person.|
|Oct-26-14|| ||perfidious: They are, same as <Feldgrau>, <Black Front>, <BobCrisp> and numerous others.|
|Oct-26-14|| ||chancho: |
|Oct-26-14|| ||OhioChessFan: I don't think WMD belongs on that list.|
|Oct-26-14|| ||MissScarlett: <Ever heard about Zagiew?>|
I know no chess player of that name. To forestall further discussion, let me add that none of Alekhine, Bogolyubow or Klaus Junge were Jewish either.
|Oct-26-14|| ||Rookiepawn: <MissScarlett: <Ever heard about Zagiew?>
I know no chess player of that name. To forestall further discussion, let me add that none of Alekhine, Bogolyubow or Klaus Junge were Jewish either.>|
This is beyond precious. So many nicks cannot make a single useful braincell. Not even smart enough to search the web for an idea of what the guy he's answering to is talking about.
Zagiew was not a Jewish chess player but a pawn moved by another chessplayer called GESTAPO. Now tell me you never heard about chessplayer GESTAPO either. Do I have to explain you all?
|Oct-26-14|| ||Rookiepawn: <chancho:
I envy these people. The guy can throw a party by himself.
|Oct-26-14|| ||keypusher: <MissScarlett> may be as racist as I am (and yes, he was WMD among many others) but he is also quite knowledgeable. And yeah, it's possible to be a Jewish Nazi collaborator (Fischer would have leapt at the chance) but Keres Jewish? It requires extraordinary ignorance to even ask the question.|
|Oct-27-14|| ||HeMateMe: <It requires extraordinary ignorance to even ask the question.>|
We can't all be as prescient as you, keypusher. I can't look at a person or their last name and determine their ethnicity. There were some very strong chess players trapped in occupied Europe during WWII. I have no idea if Paul Keres was Jewish or not.
Your attitude shows your startling ignorance regarding how people are supposed to behave and speak to one another.
|Oct-27-14|| ||Shams: <We can't all be as prescient as you, keypusher.>|
"Prescient"? He's talking about events that happened seven decades ago!
<I can't look at a person or their last name and determine their ethnicity.>
Really? Because the guy who posts under your name on Rogoff thinks he can tell a person's ethnicity, religion and geographical location without even a name or a photo.
|Oct-27-14|| ||HeMateMe: <Really? Because the guy who posts under your name on Rogoff thinks he can tell a person's ethnicity, religion and geographical location without even a name or a photo.>|
explain that. Are you referring to my hypothesizing that Mort is arab or half arab because he virulently hates Israel, although I Have never seen Mort in real life? I have 200 paragraphs submitted by him, in which to form an opinion. I have no such correspondence with Paul Keres.
|Oct-27-14|| ||Shams: <HeMateMe> Mortimer is just one example; you used to do it all the time. Instead of responding to people's arguments you'd say "I bet you're from this place and that's why you believe what you do" which is a transparent dodge and a logical fallacy. Any semi-regular reader of Rogoff knows what I'm talking about.|
|Oct-27-14|| ||Absentee: I thought Mortimer was supposed to be of french origin and therefore envious of the mayflowerers and that was why he hated the US. Has he switched to being arab now? Or has he always been a french arab kiwi?|
|Oct-29-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: Maybe because I've lived in the Middle-East?
Perhaps that was the source of the additional confusion. I say 'additional' because 'confusion' appears to be <HeMateMe>'s default state.
|Oct-29-14|| ||HeMateMe: mostly, because he has a dogged, irrational hatred of Israel. I'm pretty sure that in everyday life when Mort encounters someone of Jewish heritage who is proud of the state of Israel, Mort immediately dislikes such person(s). I see the lines of his claiming to only dislike the government of Israel and it's army blurring quite easily into disliking an entire ethnic group. I base that on his last 200 posts. |
I could be wrong, but I'm not.
|Oct-30-14|| ||Colonel Mortimer: <HeMateMe:> <I could be wrong, but I'm not>|
That's as close as you'll get to logic.
|Oct-30-14|| ||nimh: Time to refute all the ridiculous misinformation in the previous posts.|
This is Keres' genealogy page on geni.com:
Below is the following text in Estonian
<Paul Keres sündis Narvas, Eestimaal, 7. jaanuaril 1916 a. Pauli isa Peeter Keres oli pärit Viljandimaalt, ema Marie (neiuna Lämmergas) Keres Läänemaalt. Narva kolis perekond 1915. aastal, eemale läheneva sõja eest. Tagasi Pärnusse kolis perekond alles 1922. aastal. Omandas keskhariduse Pärnus, kus lõpetas gümnaasiumi 1935. aastal. Õppis 1938-1941 Tartu Ülikoolis matemaatikat ja oli 1936-1940 ajakirja "Eesti Male" peatoimetaja.
Abiellus 1940. aasta detsembris Maria Viiresega, peresse sündis kolm last. Paul Keres suri 5. juunil, 1975 Helsingis. >
which translates as
Paul Keres was born in Narva, in the land of Estonia, on 7th of January in 1916. Paul's father Peeter Keres was from the county of Viljandimaa, mother Marie (nee Lämmergas) Keres from the county of Läänemaa. The family moved to Narva in 1915, away from the war that was coming closer. The family moved back to Pärnu not before 1922. He attained secondary education in Pärnu where he graduated from a Gymnasium in 1935. He was studying mathematics in the University of Tartu in 1938-1941 and he was the chief editor of the magazine "Eesti Male" ("Estonian Chess") in 1936-1940.
He got married to Maria Viires in December in 1940, the family had three children. Paul Keres died in Helsinki on 5th of June in 1975.
Kevin Spraggett has a wonderful and informative trivia page on Keres.
His blog has something about Keres' parents:
<”Paul’s father, Peter, was the son of a peasant farmer in Viljandi. Peter was a good-humoured and sociable man who enjoyed games. Paul’s mother, Marie Lämmergas, came from a village blacksmith’s family in Läänemaa County. Paul inherited his father’s good-humour and love of games and his mother’s sense of responsibility, self-discipline and determination. These characteristics helped him to move surely ahead in his sports career. The Keres family established a tailor shop in Pärnu which was acknowledged by the local upper-class. In 1915, due to the oncoming war, the Keres family moved to Narva with their first son Harald. Peter Keres opened an odds and ends shop and Marie continued sewing”
”They lived near Peter Sq., in an old wooden house on Posti St., in a three room apartment behind the store. Paul Keres, future international grandmaster, was born here on January 7, 1916.”>
This Estonian wiki page describes the demographics of Narva; unfortunately there is no English version.
As one can see from the table, from 1897 till 1934 Estonians (Eestlased) were always the biggest ethnical group. The fact that nowadays Estonians constitute a minority is jsut an anomaly of recent times, resulting from the population policy of Soviet Union.
Here is a 1986 documentary titled "Ainult teine. Paul Keres" ("Only second. Paul Keres") on Keres' life and career on the archive site of Estonian National Broadcasting Company.
During 35:17-35:33 Botvinnik says the following on Keres' ability to speak Russian:
'He started to speak Russian very well
'even learnt all the contemporary jargon
'although he spoke with a small Estonian accent.
'He indeed became a big friend of us.
|Oct-30-14|| ||nimh: The fact Keres' command of the language was not native is also documented on the chessgames.com site.|
<whiteshark: Wolfgang Unzicker was very impressed by Keres ("a chess genius, very cultured and adorable") and they also have been good friends.
Unzicker who spoke Russian fluently said that Keres spoke German substantial better than Russian. He could of course communicate in Russian very well, but all his lifelong not fully. Sometimes he used cusses (maternije slowa) without realising it.
Someday Keres narrated the following episode about this game:
<Botwinnik offered a draw after move five, which he didn't accept. Than after four more moves Botwinnik offered again draw. Keres refused, using a 'strong Russian term'. The surrounding people saw Botwinnik blushing like a peony.>
It could maybe that it was a bit immodest, Keres said to Unzicker in his typical way.
Many years later Unzicker told this story Vaganjan, quoting Keres's expression, when Rafael had screams of laughter and reported it immediately to Khalifman, who also smirked upon it.
I wonder which <maternije slowa> Keres used. Maybe someone could ask Vaganjan or Khalifman sometime or other.>
In 2008, Genna Sosonko pubished an article in "Sirp" ("Sickle"), an Estonian culture newspaper:
unfortunately, I don't know an English version, but the relevant passage in Estonian is
<Sina peal oli ta väga väheste maletajatega: , Smõslovi, Euwega. 1940. aasta Nõukogude Liidu maletšempionaadil Moskvas Keres ei rääkinud veel vene keelt ning tema saksakeelseid partiikommentaare vahendas tõlk. Pärast sõda omandas ta kiiresti vene keele, kuid selgeks saada ei tulnud ainult keel, vaid ka kaksipidimõistmised, kahtlustamised ja muud, mida lääne inimesel Nõukogude Liidus alati raske mõista oli. Keres oli sattunud uue koordinaatide süsteemiga ühiskonda, mille väärtused erinesid sootumasti Paul Kerese elu eelmisel perioodil kogetust.>
He was in familiar terms with very few chess players: Ståhlberg, Smyslov, Euwe. In the Chess Championship of USSR in 1940 Keres did not yet speak Russian, and his game commentaries in German had to be translated. After the war he rapidly achieved a command of Russian, but what he had to learn was not just a language, but also ambivalent understandings, suspictions and other things that Western people had difficult to understand in Soviet Union. Keres had gotten in a society that had a new coordinate system whose values were quite different from what Keres experienced in the previous period of his life.
It was surprising to find that chessgames.com had placed the patronym 'Petrovich' between his forename and surname, as if it were a legitimate part of his full name. Estonians have never used patronyms, the reason they appear is due to being forced into use by soviets authorities during soviet occupation.
In case one is interested in the history of Estonia and development of its people, Wikipedia is an excellent source to start with.
|Oct-30-14|| ||zanzibar: <It was surprising to find that chessgames.com had placed the patronym 'Petrovich' between his forename and surname, as if it were a legitimate part of his full name. Estonians have never used patronyms, the reason they appear is due to being forced into use by soviets authorities during soviet occupation. >|
Didn't realize that... what about the other Baltic countries, anybody know?
Also, do Estonians use middlenames? If so, what is Keres middlename?
|Oct-30-14|| ||nimh: Sometimes parents give two forenames, but the concept of having a middle-name does not exist.|
The whole -vich matter is only an east slavic phenomenon.
I wish there were a similar page for Estonian names as well...
|Oct-30-14|| ||Absentee: <HeMateMe: I'm pretty sure that in everyday life when Mort encounters someone of Jewish heritage who is proud of the state of Israel, Mort immediately dislikes such person(s).>|
How weird to dislike someone who supports something you oppose!
|Oct-30-14|| ||zanzibar: Thank you <nimh> for those links.|
If you're knowledgeable, and motivated, you could create a similar page for Estonian names, I think even anonymously.
Just a thought. Thanks again.
|Oct-30-14|| ||nimh: <If you're knowledgeable, and motivated, you could create a similar page for Estonian names, I think even anonymously.>|
No, thanks, I don't feel like doing that :)
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 37 OF 37 ·