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|Jul-23-14|| ||HeMateMe: <A war started by the Soviet Union. An enemy that the Soviet Union was itself allied with. Keres should have told the Soviets to go @#$% themselves.
Exactly. The Russians killed more Estonians than any German army did.
|Jul-23-14|| ||perfidious: Had the Nazis remained in Estonia a few years longer, the count might well have gone in their (dis)favour; for they had little use for yet another people whom they regarded as Untermenschen.|
|Jul-23-14|| ||Rookiepawn: Alas, Paul Keres was Soviet Champion three times.
I don't know if I'm expressing a too complex idea. It seems to me that some people desperately need to make a point about politics by shaping a person into a given character useful for a political purpose. Just what fanatics do.
According to Valter Heuer ("The Troubled Years of Paul Keres, the Great Silent One”) "His 1942 Nazi newspaper interview was used for anti-Soviet propaganda". Please notice: that is not the same as saying he was a nazi, or even he made any propaganda. He took part of tournaments under the nazis and gave some interviews as he probably had no choice. Nobody can be condemned for not being a hero.
Now, on the other side, Paul Keres was no martyr either. Of course, after the war some called him "fascist", but that was just logical in a country that went under a brutal ordeal, with devastated families. The same would have happened in ANY country because that is what wars bring: paranoia, pain, a need for scapegoats. You don't need a Stalin for that. I brought the example of USA's Japanese origin citizens to illustrate the point.
Stalin was a butcher, but Paul Keres was not a victim of stalinism, he was rather a victim of war's aftermath, and by far not a terrible case. Stalinism spare him the fate it certainly didn't spare others, probably because being such a talented player he could be used. Exactly like the nazis did.
Paul Keres compromised with both the nazis and Stalin, probably disgusted with both, but having only a narrow margin to do otherwise. Neither a hero, nor a martyr.
Now if your brain is fueled by bigotry, then of course you'll need to make him some extreme character: a Fascist Nazi Collaborator, or a Martyr Freedom Fighter. He was neither, just a chess player trying to survive in a difficult moment of history.
It's funny that extreme Anti-Communism is not so different from Stalinism, some people want to tell Keres what to do: "He should have told the Soviets to go @#$% themselves", "He should have told the Nazis to go @#$% themselves", pretty much the same.
Writing "@#$% themselves" is pretty easy, you know.
If you guys cannot cope with complexity and grey areas, then you cannot cope with reality.
|Jul-23-14|| ||zanzibar: If anyone has a reference to where I could read the pieces published during the Nazi years, I'd be thankful.|
<Rookiepawn> I'm not sure anymore what your original question was. I could read back through the thread, but I'll add a couple of quotes about Keres from Soltis' <Soviet Chess 1917-1991>:
<Here is what is known:
Keres was in Estonia when it was overrun by German troops in the opening weeks of the war. He played in tournaments organized under the authority of the Nazis in Munich, Prague, Poznan and Salzburg. In last 1944 he returned from Sweden to liberated Tallin and won a tournament of Baltic players with a score of 10 wins and one draw in Riga, followed by the Estonian (open) Championship, which had attracted Kotov, Alexander Tolush, Flohr and Andor Liliental. But he played in only minor events before the 1946 matches with the United States and Britain and no major tournament until 1947.
Historian Valter Heuer wrote that Keres was interrogated by the NKVD in September 1944. [...] Veinstein [(head of planning for the NKVD)] indicated that, in his view, Keres deserved a term in the gulag. [...] Also, an August 31, 1946, memo to the Central Committee raised questions about Keres should be included in any world championship [...] But a note to the memo said Nikolai Karotamm, the First Secretary of the Estonian Communist Party Central Committee, would vouch for Keres.
During the winter of 1944-45 Keres wrote to the Sports Committee but never got a reply [...]
Keres was deeply disappointed when he was not allow to go to Groningen. [...] Certainly Kere's skill showed no hint of decline in the immediate postwar years and he won the Georgia (open) Championship of 1946 by allowing only two draws in 19 games - one of them to candidate master Tigran Petrosian.
If there were any secret terms to Keres' eventual return to the good graces of Sports Committee it was his relinquishing of any right to challenge Alekhine on the basis of AVRO 1938.>
Soltis also describes how Keres help Botvinnik prepare for the 1946 WCC.
|Jul-24-14|| ||perfidious: <Rookiepawn: If you guys cannot cope with complexity and grey areas, then you cannot cope with reality.>|
Many people are not disposed to deal with reality.
|Jul-24-14|| ||MissScarlett: <<Now again, ever seen one of these interviews? >|
Then your question is irrelevant.>
Why is it so difficult just to say 'no'?
<<A war started by the Soviet Union.>
You need history books.>
A war started by the Soviet Union.
<<An enemy that the Soviet Union was itself allied with.>
<Again, you need history books. You use a temporary, unstable agreement between two countries that shortly after devastated each other to call them "allies". The Allies against The Axis, basic history facts.>
Between their alliance and the breakdown of that alliance, what happened? Oh yes, the occupation and annexation of Estonia. The Soviet Union declared war on Keres, not the other way around.
<Of course, you reason so well and know so much about history that you are in a position to tell anybody what to do and not to do.>
Listen to it. He thinks I was advising Keres to commit suicide. The boy's a fool.
|Aug-11-14|| ||Rookiepawn: <<Then your question is irrelevant.> |
Why is it so difficult just to say 'no'? >
Answering irrelevant questions is useless.
<<<A war started by the Soviet Union.>
You need history books.>
A war started by the Soviet Union. >
OK, you are a robot. What am I doing answering a robot?
<Listen to it. He thinks I was advising Keres to commit suicide. The boy's a fool.>
"He should have told the Soviets...". A defective robot, you need a new memory chip.
|Aug-11-14|| ||perfidious: <Rookiepawn>, the poster who now operates under the handle <MissScarlett> has been banned numerous times, but bigotry, intolerance and faux intellectualism are constants of his. If the world were still ruled by Albion, lording it over the brown and black untermenschen of other countries, O Happy Day for him! As matters stand, he is reduced to racist, xenophobic posts which rail against all and sundry.|
|Aug-12-14|| ||MissScarlett: <<<Then your question is irrelevant.>|
Why is it so difficult just to say 'no'? >
Answering irrelevant questions is useless.>
It's relevant to the fact that you claim the Nazis made use of some interviews given by Keres. Interviews of which you've never seen one, let alone some. Sorry that I had to answer for you.
<OK, you are a robot. What am I doing answering a robot?>
I'm a genius at deconstructing the faulty and fallacious arguments of others. But let me just repeat it one more time for the public record, because I appreciate that such a bald statement of fact discomfits you so:
<A war started by the Soviet Union.>
<<Listen to it. He thinks I was advising Keres to commit suicide. The boy's a fool.>
"He should have told the Soviets...". A defective robot, you need a new memory chip.>
You need a new irony detector.
Game over. 1-0.
|Aug-12-14|| ||perfidious: <MissScarlett: I'm a genius at deconstructing the faulty and fallacious arguments of others....>|
A legend in his own mind. Who knew?
Yeah, auto-fallacio is your bag.
<Game over. 1-0.>
Hmm--didn't know <unagi> had migrated to this page. Must think he's found easier prey here than at Rogoff, where all his attempts at 'logic' get picked clean.
|Aug-13-14|| ||Petrosianic: <perfidious>: <A legend in his own mind. Who knew?>|
Generally, once you've turned the focus away from the argument onto yourself, you've already lost it.
|Aug-13-14|| ||nimh: Those 'nazi interviews' are certainly something i'd want to read? Any chance those exist on the web?|
|Aug-13-14|| ||MissScarlett: Don't ask <RookiePawn>. I asked him; <zanzibar> asked him. Apparently, they're irrelevant. As is the fact the Soviets invaded Estonia. As is the fact that Keres collaborated with the Soviets before he was collaborated with the Nazis. In this regard, I define collaboration as a desire to continue living. But according to Rookiepawn, the Soviets were right to be furious with Keres, and he can consider himself lucky not to have been shot.|
|Aug-13-14|| ||Rookiepawn: <sigh> it is funny how this:|
<According to Valter Heuer ("The Troubled Years of Paul Keres, the Great Silent One”) "His 1942 Nazi newspaper interview was used for anti-Soviet propaganda". Please notice: that is not the same as saying he was a nazi, or even he made any propaganda. He took part of tournaments under the nazis and gave some interviews as he probably had no choice. Nobody can be condemned for not being a hero.>
<It's relevant to the fact that you claim the Nazis made use of some interviews given by Keres.>
I use a source, someone who is reliable because he has no need to lie regarding this matter.
It feels funny to explain to a self-declared "genius" the basic fact that you don't need to actually "see" something to give it credit. This lowers the debate level to some kind of retarded child drool: "You didn't see it, so you lie! Game over, 1-0! I am a genius!"
Leave apart the fact that I am clearly not blaming Keres, a point you get too late and repeat as your own.
|Sep-17-14|| ||docbenway: HeMateMe:Losing "1/4th of your country's population to death and deportation is a pretty awful thing. This makes the internment of Japanese Americans in California a bit more tame, by comparison, don't you think? They weren't deported, killed, or made to do slave labor. They had to live in isolated villages for a few years.|
Disgraceful behavior by the USA, and unwarranted, but please don't compare it to the mass murders committed by Stalin."
The US and England are accomplices in Stalin's post WW2 mass murder campaign by shipping White Russians (Cossacks)back to Russia by the boat load for mass execution. This story has been suppressed into the 1970s. It's been told in a few books. It slowed down when Eisenhower and Montgomery finally refused to go along with it any more. I read about this yesterday in the NY Times, Encyclopedia Britannica, and Wikipedia after seeing Foley's War-The Russian house and wanting to know more.
|Sep-17-14|| ||Olavi: <docbenway>
In fact, of the thousands of Cossacks, who the British mainly captured in Austria, only a minority had ever been Soviet citizens. Many of them had fought in the Civil War of 1918-22, but they had not committed treason or anything like that.
|Sep-17-14|| ||SteinitzLives: So, was Keres the strongest player of his time never to be World Champion?
He gets my vote for that title.
Perhaps followed by Rubinstein?
What about Schlechter? Bronstein?, Geller?, or L.Stein?
There are other candidates, I'm sure.
Problem is, there are too many ways to measure chess greatness: Peak rating, average rating, tournament record, match record, percentage of losses, percentage of wins, records against top players of the time, etc.
|Sep-17-14|| ||Petrosianic: Keres is a strong contender, but not the lead pipe cinch people think. His main claims to fame were a) one first place tie in a supertournament, and b) the sympathy factor of finishing 2nd in four Candidates Tournaments. Anybody that close to the top for that long obviously could have been world champion.|
Is there any feeling that he OUGHT to have been world champion, though? Nobody seems to know when that would have been. Unlike someone like Reshevsky, Keres was never #1 on the Chessmetrics List (although he was #2 for an eye-popping 52 months). So, when was his dominant period, exactly, when he stood out from the pack? No one's quite sure.
|Sep-17-14|| ||perfidious: <SteinitzLives> I put this question to the masses elsewhere a few years ago:|
|Sep-17-14|| ||Petrosianic: Rubinstein did have the Sweet Spot. Say around 1908-1912, when he was super hot, and might very well have been the best in the world. Bronstein and Korchnoi I both feel should have won their respective matches, but I'm not sure they were really the best in the world (Botvinnik was 3 years out of practice, and Karpov was way ahead until he tired).|
Here's a question. Where would Korchnoi's reputation be today if he had won in 1978, and then lost a rematch in 1979? He'd have been a world champion, and that's good. But would people look at him the same, or would they start to look down on him for "only" being champion a year?
|Sep-18-14|| ||Olavi: Keres did win four consecutive tournaments in 1950-52, including twice USSR ch, in what were the strongest tournaments of the time. (The order of the tournaments on the Chessmetrics site is incorrect.) And that run put him on the first board for the 1952 Olympiad. Perhaps he wasn't dominant, but undoubtedly nr. one.|
|Sep-18-14|| ||Petrosianic: Okay, but then he didn't win the Candidates Tournament. That was the one time he didn't even finish second. So he did have his chance, unlike, say Rubinstein.|
|Sep-18-14|| ||Olavi: Agree completely. He had his chance seven times, in fact. 1948-65: first time there was no playing Botvinnik, -50 off form, -53 -56 -59 -62 always second best to the player who would become World Champion, averiging much better than Smyslov; and 1965, there was Spassky. Yes, I am partial.|
|Sep-18-14|| ||SteinitzLives: Can't believe I left off Korchnoi, he could challenge for top player never to be world champion for sure. Perhaps I just wanted to block out Karpov's dominance and the Soviet government's treatment of Korchnoi during that period, which in hindsight teaches a great deal.|
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