< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 6 ·
|Jul-23-13|| ||parisattack: Hi <builttospill>
I'll dig deeper into this line. I see your 8....f6 was a win for Black in Kropff-Delgado Uruguay 2011 (although Black was much higher rated) and 8....Bf3: won also for Black in Richman-Treger Philadelphia 2010. I will thumb through my books when I have more time, see what I can find.
Martin's videos are fun but obviously quite loose, overly optimistic...
|Jul-23-13|| ||builttospill: Much appreciated. For some reason this opening really suits my skill-set and chess understanding, so I can't help but explore it.|
What database did you find that Kropff-Delgado game in? I'd be interested to have a look at it.
|Jul-23-13|| ||parisattack: I've only played it a few times but its a fun opening, for sure.|
I also found a game Farago-Prohasza Hungary 2007 where White won with 8....f6; 9. h3.
|Jul-23-13|| ||builttospill: I don't think h3 is best play for white. Not too hard to get the gambited pawn back, as was the case in the game.|
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. a3 Bg4 6. b4 Qe7 7. Nbd2 O-O-O 8. Bb2 f6 9. h3 Bxf3 10. gxf3 Nxe5 11. Qb3 c5 12. Ne4 cxb4 13. c5 bxa3 14. Rxa3 Kb8 15. Bg2 Qf7 16. Qa4 Nc6 17. f4 d3 18. Rb3 d2+ 19. Kd1 Qd5 20. Rxb7+ Ka8 21. Bf3 Kxb7 22. Nd6+ Rxd6 23. Bxd5 Rxd5 24. Qb3+ Nb4 25. Qxb4+ Kc8 26. Qa4 Ne7 27. Qxa7 Nc6 28. Qa6+ 1-0
I made a response to someone who brought that up in the Gelfand-Radjabov game page. The first mistake for black was 11. c5. Nh6 instead and we have a real slugfest in the works.
|Jul-24-13|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: @<builttospill> and <parisattack>|
there is a new book, published by NIC
|Jul-24-13|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: the 5.a3 Nge7 6. b4 line mentioned by <parisattack> is the line recommended by Boris Avrukh in his hugely popular title "1.d4" and in Lars Schandorff's "Playing the Queen's Gambit", both for Quality Chess and published in 2008 and 2009 respectively.|
So the Albin player will probably face 4. Nf3 Nc6 5.a3 most of the time!
|Jul-24-13|| ||parisattack: <SimonsWebbTiger> Thanks! Forgot that series on my above list.|
Playable @ 2000 doesn't mean playable @ 2700. One assumes the 'opening market' at the Elite level is very efficient and there is a reason if an opening or a variation isn't tendered very often...
|Jul-24-13|| ||parisattack: <SimonsWebbTiger> Guess I will have to get The Complete Albin book...looks interesting!|
<builttospill> What is Black's best against an attempt at outright refutation 4. e4 and 5. f4?
|Jul-24-13|| ||builttospill: <parisattack> A great question. Definitely not a "bad" move for white. I think it's a good try to get the albin player "out of theory" over the board. Leads to a strange game, but perhaps a lot of the themes remain constant.|
So after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. e4 Nc6 5. f4
Lots of candidate moves here already for black, including Bb4+, Nh6, Qh4+, and Bc5, but I think it really comes down to f6 vs. g5.
My two engines don't see eye to eye on this one, either. Stockfish likes f6 and Critter likes g5. With lots of good potential moves for both sides I put a bit more emphasis in Critter's ideas, because sometimes Stockfish overlooks things to see deeper.
The database on chessgames (small sample size) seems to favor ...g5, and I think it has some strong points.
M Praszak vs M Mozny, 1990
Here you can see the opening is so rich with tactical ideas for both sides that I would simply favour the player with more tactical aptitude, regardless of what side of the board they're playing.
In this game, computers like black after e6 is played by white and it's all downhill from there.
Here's another interesting game in that line: Burn vs Schlechter, 1900
There's also a line where after g5, white plays f5, and I think it's best to play according to the themes of the opening, which is rapid development, and go with Qe7 in that case, rather than an immediate recapture. Couldn't find anything in this database with that idea. I guess that's why white wins where f5 is played.
Then there's some ideas if black plays f6 instead.
Tal vs Springall, 1964
Found this gem from Mikhail Tal, pretty much not interested in developing his knight on c1 until he has a plan. I think it's very well played. Black doesn't actually go wrong until move 15. Ng6 and it looks good for black.
Playable for both sides it seems. The better player should win.
|Jul-24-13|| ||parisattack: <builttospill...There's also a line where after g5, white plays f5> |
OK, I will take a look at ...Qe7 as f5 looks like the most dangerous line for Black to me.
I don't have an engine, but I can still shuffle pieces around the board. :)
|Jul-24-13|| ||builttospill: That f5 line is just uncomfortable to play. I think it gives the albin player a taste of his own medicine. No wonder it was the preferred choice of Korchnoi, Spassky and Petrosian.|
I'm going to back track a bit and suggest something like this is best for black:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.e4 Nc6 5.f4 f6 6.Nf3 fxe5 7.fxe5 Bg4 8.Nbd2 Qe7 9.Be2 O-O-O 10.Nxd4 Nxd4 11.Bxg4+ Kb8 12.O-O h5 13.Bf3 Qxe5 *
A bit more comfortable to play. You lose that nice pawn on d4, but I think the damage is done at that point. I'd much rather play the black side of that.
|Jul-24-13|| ||parisattack: 6. ef: seems to have better results for White than 6. Nf3 - although it gets really wild as in Markos- Hrubasa Czech 2012. I also see 6. e6 played by White.|
|Jul-24-13|| ||builttospill: Markos-Hrubasa is crazy and not only that played really well from both sides until white blundered on move 19. 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. e4 Nc6 5. f4 f6 6. exf6 Nxf6 7. Bd3 Bb4+ 8. Nd2 Ng4 9. a3 Ne3 10. Qe2 O-O 11. axb4 Nxb4 12. Ndf3 Nxg2+ 13. Qxg2 Nxd3+ 14. Kd1 Qe7 15. Ne5 Nxe5 16. fxe5 Qxe5 17. Bd2 Be6 18. Ra5 c5 19. Qe2 d3 20. Qxd3 Rad8 21. Qc2 Rf1+ 22. Ke2 Rxd2+ 23. Kxd2 Qd4+ 24. Qd3 Qxb2+ 25. Ke3 Qf2+ 0-1
I think 19. Kc1 and the madness continues. About -0.25 via Critter.|
Ok so this exf6 line is the one I'll consider most likely to occur in a game. Here's a couple of ways to go about it:
Extremely complicated line A
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. e4 Nc6 5. f4 f6 6. exf6 Nxf6 7. Bd3 Bb4+ 8. Nd2 0-0 9. Nf3 Ng4 10. a3 Bd6 11. f5 Ne3 (if 11. e5 Bxe5 12. fxe5 Ncxe5 13. Be4 Ne3 14. Qe2 Bg4 and black has a lot of pressure)
Extremely complicated line B
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. e4 Nc6 5. f4 f6 6. exf6 Nxf6 7. Bd3 Bb4+ 8. Nd2 0-0 9. Nf3 Ng4 10. a3 Ne3 11. Qe2 Rxf4 12. axb4 Nxb4
Looks like something Petrosian might embrace as white.
|Jul-24-13|| ||parisattack: I will check them out, thanks. Yes, if you like wild games, complications - this is your baby!|
I am also anxious to see the 'Complete' book <SimonWebbsTiger> turned us on to recently.
|Aug-17-13|| ||parisattack: <builttospill> Have you purchased 'The Complete Albin Counter-Gambit' by Henris as yet? It is a monster - I don't know where to begin.|
At least this week I will look up the line we considered as 'critical' a couple of weeks ago and report back to headquarters.
|Aug-19-13|| ||builttospill: Hey <paris>,
I've been focused much more on my endgame lately. However, this is one of my pet openings, so I'm very curious what you find in this book.
|Aug-20-13|| ||parisattack: I'll try to get to it soon. Unbelievable book!
In the meantime if you tired of endings, here's a fun article on the Albin:
|Aug-31-13|| ||parisattack: <builttospill>
When you've figured out distant opposition - I posted a short review of 'The Complete Albin Counter-Gambit' on <ChessBooForum>. Alas, not much on our 'critical' lines(s) - considering a 600 page tome.
|Sep-07-13|| ||builttospill: <paris> Thanks I'll check it out.|
I wanted to talk about another line with you. I believe the real critical line in this opening comes from 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Nd2
I read an article talking about how this is troubling for black: http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/...
Supposedly the best way to meet this is Nge7 6. Nb3 Nf5
The critical part coming here:
7. e4 dxe3 8. Qxd8+ Nxd8 (Or Kxd8) when White's activity is more important than his doubled and isolated pawns on the open e- file -- though Black certainly has long-term prospects.
In fact, it seems the Nge7 line isn't the best way to meet this. It's likely still Bg4, but the line that is the most problematic is actually the one from this game:
Sakaev vs T Nabaty, 2010
[Event "European Club Cup"]
[Site "Plovdiv BUL"]
[White "Konstantin Sakaev"]
[Black "Tamir Nabaty"]
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 d4 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Qe7 6. g3 f6
7. exf6 Nxf6 8. Bg2 d3 9. e3 Bg4 10. O-O O-O-O 11. a3 h5
12. h3 Be6 13. b4 Nd7 14. Bb2 h4 15. g4 Bxg4 16. hxg4 h3
17. Bh1 h2+ 18. Nxh2 Qh4 19. Ndf3 Qh7 20. c5 Be7 21. Bg2 Bf6
22. Qb3 Rdf8 23. Rfd1 Nce5 24. c6 bxc6 25. Rac1 Nxf3+ 26. Nxf3
Bxb2 27. Qxb2 Rxf3 28. Bxf3 Qh2+ 29. Kf1 Ne5 30. Bg2 Rf8
31. Rc5 Nxg4 32. Rxd3 Qg3 33. Rc2 Nh2+ 34. Kg1 Nf3+ 35. Kf1
Nh2+ 36. Ke1 Qxg2 37. Kd2 Ng4 38. Kc3 Nxf2 39. Rd4 Qg1 40. Qc1
Qg6 41. Kb3 Nd3 42. Qh1 Qe6+ 43. Ka4 Ne5 44. Re4 Qd6 45. Qh2
Rf5 46. Rc5 Qd1+ 47. Qc2 Qd6 48. Qc3 Qd1+ 49. Ka5 Nf7 50. Rxf5
Nd6 51. Qxc6 Nb7+ 52. Ka6 Qd3+ 53. Rc4 Qxa3+ 54. Ra5 1-0
Is 6...f6 the move that needs to be improved on? I posted comments on it, but it does seem challenging to play against this line
|Sep-07-13|| ||parisattack: Hi <builtospill> I'll check out the line, your game and revert. Henris does give 5, Nd2 an entire section. ....f6 often thematic in the Albin of course - but timing the key I guess.|
|Sep-07-13|| ||parisattack: As 'Others' to 5. Nbd2 Henris offers in Chapter 13: 5...f6, 5...Bf5, 5...Be6, 5....Bb4, 5...Qe7 and 5. ...Nh6.|
For 5. ...Qe7 he analyzes two games: Tikkanen-Nabaty (2010) and Sakeev-Nabaty (2010).
|Sep-07-13|| ||builttospill: So he considers the main line to be Nge7 then? Actually I usually play Qe7 on move 5 I had mixed up my order. It's been a while since I've played this line.|
It would seem Nabaty is the guy on the cutting edge of Albin theory.
|Sep-07-13|| ||parisattack: Henris gives Chapter 11. to ...Nge7, Chapter 12. to 11. ...Bg4 and Chapter 13. to the Others I mentioned.|
Yes, <Nabaty> seems to be the go-to guy - although for 2013 ChessLab (90 games for the Albin) doesn't show any by him. <Potapov> shows nine games tho, 2013.
|Mar-08-15|| ||KingsGambiteer: It kills me that 3.e3 leads to the exchange French (doesn't suit my taste) easily sidestepping one of my favorite openings.|
|Mar-08-15|| ||Mating Net: All three Black wins ( one of White's also ) have been GOTD.|
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