|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
Apr-09-06
 |
| MUG: Not refuted, just easy for an opponent to prepare for, I think, once the suprise value is gone. I can imagine many of the top flight GMs just itching with anticipation for Moro to try the Chigorin against them again!! |
 |
Apr-14-06
|
| MUG: Incidentally, Gary Lane recommends the Chigorin very highly as a defence for the club player in his book <Ideas Behind Modern Chess Openings: Black (Batsford 2005)>. He doesn't, however, much like 8...Bg4 in the lines quoted above, preferring either 8...Nf6 (exciting but double-edged)
D Rogozenko vs Morozevich, 2000
or 8...Nge2 (dull but safe).
D Southam vs B Bogle, 2004
|
|
| Oct-10-06 |
| fearmyskills: Let me conclude what we have learned from our analysis.
OK, we know that Chigorin is partially refuted. The line we hvae been analyzing gives white a  . This is only true if black can play extremely precise. Black has to be a dang good defender to achieve a which still gives white the advantage! This line provides white with bishop pair in a wide open position. I beleive white should have no problem at all converting this to a decisive advantage. This line allows white to play very comfortably. White has absoltely no worries. He can sit back relax and torture black with his bishop pair in a long endgame. My last comment is that black, playing the chig for the purpose of creating an exciting, dynamic game full of complicated tactics will frustrated when white steers the game in a long positional boring game where he has the advantage.
I hope this has helped those people deciding if they want to play the chig |
|
Mar-31-07
 |
| Whack8888: I personally feel the Chigorin is one of Black's best responces the Queen's Gambit. Instead of defending against White's central attack (2. c4) Black counterattacks. If Black plays dynamically and creatively, he will get a good game. I dont know any of the theory actually, for the Chigorin, though but I would geuss that it may be more or less impossible to refute. <White has absoltely no worries.> This may be Black's greatest asset in the Chigorin--many White players underestimate this defence. |
|
| Jun-15-07 |
| builttospill: This is a defense I think I owe myself to learn to improve in chess. I usually play the computer rather than people because it keeps me honest and makes me avoid silly tactical oversights that humans routinely miss. Here's one of my favorite games because Fritz couldn't give me one question mark all game! Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of this intriguing opening for black. White - Built to Spill
Black - Apple Powerbook set to approximately 40% difficulty (Trust me it's hard!) 1. d4 d5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. c4 e6
4. e3 Nf6
5. Nc3 Bb4
6. Be2 dxc4
7. Bxc4 Ne4
8. Qc2 Nf6
Kind of a questionable sequence by the computer.
9. 0-0 0-0
10. Rd1 Bd7
I feel really solid at this point out of the opening. I am at my best when I try to use classical principles and avoid hypermodern strategies. That's why I feel I can improve drastically if I can understand the subtleties of this opening from the black perspective.
11. e4 Bxc3
12. bxc3 Na5?!
This puts my bishop onto perhaps a better diagonal. I don't like the move for the computer
13. Bd3 c5
14. e5 c4
This is a critical moment. I could go to e2 with the bishop and have a comfortable position, but I go for an attack
15. Ng5!? cxd3
16. Qxd3 h6
I would have been better off playing Rxd3, where if hxg5, Rh3 spells trouble. I had this in mind when I played Ng5.
17. exf6 hxg5
18. Bxg5
click for larger view...g6??
The computer is very good at avoiding material loss, but too good. What makes it beatable is that it values material over checkmate. Note: If gxf6, then 19. Bh6 Qb8 20. Qh3 f5 21. Qh5 Qd8 22. Rd3 Kh8 Bg5+ (huge advantage for white)
Something like Bc6 is the best way to continue. Fritz struggles to evaluate such positions with material inequality and an exposed king. 19. Qh3 a6
20. Qh6 Qxf6
21. Bxf6 Nc4
22. Qg7# |
|
| Apr-09-08 |
| Alphastar: Well <builttospill>, the apple powerbook immediately went wrong with 3. ..e6?? (I really believe this deserves two question marks as it is completely NOT in line with Nc6) which completely cramps his game. The normal move is 3. ..Bg4. |
|
May-06-08
 |
| KingG: After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5 Qxd5 4.e3 e5 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bd2 Bxc3, does anyone know which move is supposed to be better, 7.bxc3 as played in Kasparov vs Ivanchuk, 1995, or 7.Bxc3 as in the game Topalov vs Morozevich, 1999. Kasparov's move, strengthening the center seems appealing to me, but the analysis given on the previous page by <acirce> seems quite convincing as well. Actually, speaking of that Kasparov game, it's interesting to see the huge burst in popularity for the move 7.bxc3 after Kasparov played it. Before then it had only been played a handful of times, including this win by Rubinstein Rubinstein vs Tartakower, 1930. Strange that such a natural move could be so unpopular until Kasparov's game with Ivanchuk. |
|
May-06-08
 |
| Open Defence: <KingG> personally I prefer Bxc3 though the win has to be ground out and a very good defender could draw, but it seems to be a no risk line and Chigorin afficionados would hate a line where they have no counter play, perhaps the retreat 9...Be6 is worth looking at though White has the advantage |
|
| May-24-08 |
| Alphastar: <Open Defence> I agree that the line 7. Bxc3 exd4 8. Ne2 Bg4?! has pretty much been refuted. I would play 8. ..Nf6 however. I believe that move guarantees black a full share of the chances.
Ofcourse there will be people who automatically claim that white has an advantage due to bishop pair in position with open centre after 9. Nxd4 O-O 10. Nxc6 Qxc6 and then something like 11. Qf3 Qxf3 12. gxf3.
click for larger view
I find such dogmatism laughable and would gladly play the black side and achieve an easy draw or more. Seriously, everyone 'knows' that a bishop pair with an open centre should constitute an advantage. But it's like everyone thinks you can then automatically exploit that advantage, the bishops will do it by themselves. I gladly would like to know how white is going to make progress in that queenless middlegame. I would rather play the black side anyway. |
|
May-24-08
|
| Open Defence: <Alphastar> <I find such dogmatism laughable and would gladly play the black side .......But it's like everyone thinks you can then automatically exploit that advantage, the bishops will do it by themselves. I gladly would like to know how white is going to make progress in that queenless middlegame. I would rather play the black side anyway.> I agree that some of these <advantages> are not easily exploited especially below Master and Grand Master level, and of course just because White has an advantage the position is not necessarily winning, I would say White has the better chances but of course Black also has some play and that's why I said the win has to be <ground out> which is more my style I guess and that a good defender could draw or even more if White slips, also most Chigorin players like the active middle game with tactics, but this position may not be to their tastes but of course tastes vary |
|
| May-26-08 |
| Alphastar: for your info I think the position is equal or slightly better for black.
The knight will be very stable on d5 and white's pawn structure and lack of development make it more important to actually hold on to the bishop pair than to try to exploit it. |
|
| Apr-10-09 |
| WhiteRook48: 3. c5 |
|
| May-08-09 |
| Fanacas: Lasker said in his manual of chess, taht even thought a player has the advantage it doesnt mean he has instantly won een though most chess players thin that way, he also said that the player who has the obvious advantage most of the time grows arrogant and plays worse then the player who doesnt have the iniativ, i my games that is so treu when i stand worse i player better chess then when i have the advantage. So this is probaly playble just like the spanisch exhange where white also has a bishop pare in a open game. (dont mind the spelling mistakes) |
|
May-13-09
 |
| blacksburg: i might start playing this, i've been having some issues with the Slav, and the Chigorin seems to be in the same spirit as the Scandinavian - quick development, active pieces, relatively low on the theory. |
|
| May-14-09 |
| Fanacas: If you like quick devolepment, The Tarrasch defence is great 2, but you can get a isolatet d pawn. |
|
| May-14-09 |
| FrogC: <blacksburg> I thought about the Chigorin, too, but then I discovered the Budapest Gambit, which I think is easier to learn and gives a really interesting game. |
|
May-14-09
|
| blacksburg: <FrogC> Budapest Gambit? hmmm...i'll take a look. |
|
| May-14-09 |
| FHBradley: <FrogC:> I think the Chigorin gives an interesting game as well. What you say about the Budapest being easier to learn may well be true. Morozevich said something to the effect that playing the Chigorin (and also the Albin countergambit) helped him to improve his understanding of what one can and what one cannot do with the black pieces. So, apart from anything else, the Chigorin may have an important instructive function. |
|
| May-14-09 |
| fromoort: Some grandmaster once said that whoever is afraid of an IQP shouldn't play chess! |
|
| May-15-09 |
| Fanacas: That was Tarrasch. He said it becose he thought that th emobilty gain by an isolatet pawn most of all the queen pawn(its more easly gaurded) is worth much more then the isolation of the pawn. |
|
May-15-09
|
| blacksburg: i think my problem with the Tarrasch is that everyone and their mother knows how to play against it - g3, Bg2, and then occupy the dark squares d4 and often c5 after Nxc6, and wait for black to do something silly, otherwise, just suffocate him. i personally play pretty well against the tarrasch, because the plans are so simple, and i don't want to play something that i enjoy playing against so much, if that makes sense. |
|
May-15-09
|
| euripides: <Blacksburg> there is an interesting line in the Tarrasch with ...c4 at about move 9. It's sharp and tricky, has quite a good record, and I suspect many players don't have any idea what to do against it. |
|
| May-15-09 |
| Fanacas: Yes the tarrasch also has many intresting side lines you should look into it. |
|
| May-15-09 |
| Fanacas: But we are going a little off topic here :P i personally do not use the chigorin defence i most of the time use the klassikel queens gambit declined but it looks intresting to look in. |
|
Nov-05-09
 |
| parisattack: <Akavall: Has Chigorin been 'refuted' at the top level at least for now? I don't see any Top level GMs using it any more, in other words Morozevich stoped using it ;). If so what line is considered to be the strongest for white? I am just curious, I will still play the Chigorin.> Four years after the above post it's still under a cloud, apparently. Morozevich did write a book on it - after he stopped playing it. Does anyone know particular games or lines which sent it back into slumber? I've been revisting the defence of late. Also - Other books on it, please? ---
QGD Tchigorin - Soltis
QG Chigorin Defence - Watson
How to Play the Chigori Defense in the QGD - Schiller Tchigorin Defense - Chess Digest
Chigorin Defense - Bronznic
The Chigorin According to Morozevich
(It is also covered in a few 1. ...Nc6 Repertoire books.) |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
