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May-24-08
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| brankat: <..."Che was really a great guy." "Stalin had a lot of good points." And back in the 30s, Mussolini made the trains run on time...> While we're at it let's not forget an endless line-up great freedom-loving guys like Joe McCarthy, Hoover, L.Johnson, G.W.Bush, Guantanamo Bay boys, Rumsfeld, Cheney... |
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| May-24-08 |
| MaxxLange: We really should have facts and details before we form an opinion about whether Junge committed war crimes or not. Although the entire SS, including (I assume), the "Waffen SS", was designated to be a criminal organization by the allies, of course some units were indeed mostly front line combat, and not involved in murdering Jews and other civilians. One of the whole points of beating Hitler was to restore the rule of law, and to require facts before we send a man off the his gallows, after all, even if it is just his reputation and not his neck on offer. I mainly know this player through the famous beating that he received from Alekhine. Was that from one of the Nazi sponsored tournaments that Alekhine is said to have supported? |
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| May-24-08 |
| MichAdams: It's a pity that Junge didn't survive the war and become West German. By the early 50s, he might have been a serious challenger for the world championship. A Junge-Botvinnik title match in the mid-50s would have been a Cold War battle with real bite. |
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May-24-08
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| Marmot PFL: What is a war crime anyway? If the allies had lost the USAF and RAF would have been judged guilty for dropping incendiaries on German cities. |
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| May-24-08 |
| MaxxLange: <What is a war crime anyway> The 1945 Nuremberg defendants were there for either crimes against humanity, or for waging wars of aggression. The first category is the Holocaust actors. In the second category were the men who planned, financed, and executed attacking and looting peaceful countries such as Poland, France, Norway, Ukraine, Russia, etc. |
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| May-24-08 |
| sitzkrieg: I wouldnt' call Russia (Russia?) peaceful.
And France, well, maybe. |
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| May-24-08 |
| MaxxLange: The USSR, run from Moscow, conquered everything in between Russia and Germany prior to 1942. Point taken. But, they at least had no plans to attack Germany, and, when Hitler invaded the USSR, he broke bald-faced the Molotov-Ribbentrop nonagression pact. Hitler thus showed contempt for international law at least as much as he did for civil law inside Germany, and much as he had in his many earlier criminal policy enterprises. |
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| May-24-08 |
| MaxxLange: Stalin was as bad or worse, but I take Hitler more personally since my Norwegian family were occupied by Nazi Germany. Anyway, I think we should not leap to the worst conclusion about Junge until we know more about what kind of war he had |
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May-24-08
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| Marmot PFL: <Anyway, I think we should not leap to the worst conclusion about Junge until we know more about what kind of war he had>the That's what I meant. While the Holocaust was a terrible crime, the war conduct by the typical German soldier following his orders was not much different than that fought by the Allies. |
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| May-24-08 |
| MaxxLange: Right. Leading men in battle is very different morally from organizing the massacre of defenseless civilians. But who knows if we can really find out where he was and what he did. Just by being a Nazi, he has a pretty big asterisk on his record. |
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May-25-08
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| lost in space: I seperate private/political things from chess. Junge was one the very few big chess talents of Germany after 1930. Accoding to my information his historical ELO was 2661. Whome to name as german chess talents after 1930 beside Junge, Huebner and Unzicker (and Unzicker was sitting always on the wrong side of the board when it come to brillinat games; Huebner throwed always away his chances due to his nerves)? So Junge is interesting just because of this. I deal also with other players in teh same way. For example Bobby Fischer: if you seperate the private/polictical things, a brilliant, genius chess player remains. And this is a chees site. So I am focusing on chess and - if I am intessted in political issues - I change to an other webside. |
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| May-25-08 |
| MichAdams: According to Olimpbase (http://www.olimpbase.org/), East Germany took part in every Olympiad, except 1954's, between 1952 and 1972, but then didn't compete again until 1988. Does anyone know the reason for this break? |
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May-25-08
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| Benzol: <MichAdams> I can remember reading in Keene and Levy's book on the Nice Olympiad in 1974 that there were three notable absentees. One was Bent Larsen, one was Bobby Fischer and the third was the East German team. The reasons given were that the Danish Chess Federation couldn't make worth Larsen's while; Bobby Fischer wanted to play all his games in a separate room and the East German team didn't play because they couldn't win! The comment after this was something like "...but if everbody who couldn't win didn't play then there would be no Olympiad and no book". Sounds a strange reason but apparently that is what happened in 1974. Don't know about the following years. |
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| May-25-08 |
| MichAdams: For 'couldn't win', read 'couldn't beat West Germany'. They'd consistently placed behind them in previous Olympiads. In the wake of Fischer's Cold War triumph, and, perhaps, under the influence of <Hardline Honecker>, the Commies cried off. |
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| May-25-08 |
| sitzkrieg: < But, they at least had no plans to attack Germany > This is debatable. |
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| May-25-08 |
| MichAdams: <Whome to name as german chess talents after 1930 beside Junge, Huebner and Unzicker...> Easy to confuse with Unzicker, but what about Uhlmann? |
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May-25-08
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| lost in space: <MichAdams> yeah, Uhlmann, Lobron, Wahls and a few others were (or are) strong masters, but they don't have(had) the capability to be in the absolut top class of grandmasters |
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May-25-08
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| brankat: W.Uhlmann was among a dozen of the leading GMs from about the early '60s till mid seventies. R.Huebner between early '70s to mid '80s.
GM W.Unzicker devoted most of his time to his legal profession. But still did have a number of fine results against the best. In tournaments and Chess Olympiads, for some 25 years. All three have been considered top GMs. |
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| Aug-10-08 |
| myschkin: . . .
http://www.chessville.com/misc/Hist... |
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| Aug-10-08 |
| myschkin: . . .
Photo:
http://tinyurl.com/59boh4
Vasja Pirc, Klaus Junge and Alexander Alekhine (No liability assumed!)
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| Aug-11-08 |
| visayanbraindoctor: <What is a war crime anyway?> The human condition is such that history is often decided by and for the victor, and so are war crimes. This is something many people would find uncomfortable to think about (me included). It's strange to hear but, by the standards of the Nuremberg trial, certain actions of famous conquerors such as Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, or Genghis Khan could be regarded as war crimes. Some Allied actions such as fire bombing to death 40,000 German civilians in Dresden; sending hundreds of thousands of German POWs to hard labor in Siberia; driving out millions of ethnic Germans from their homes in what are now parts of present-day Poland, Russia, Czech Republic, etc..; or killing over 200,000 Japanese civilians in the two atomic bomb explosions, from the viewpoint of a hypothetical victory by the Axis powers (if that ever came about)..., well could these be regarded as war crimes? What Klaus Junge could have become is a strange example of the what-if alternate reality so beloved of science fiction writers. What if Germany had developed the atom bomb on January 1, 1945? Germany would have won WW2 before Klaus Junge could die in action. Klaus Junge could have become Chess World Champion. On the other hand, other consequences to the Chess World (and we're not even talking about the rest of the world) would have been radically drastic and extensive. No Jewish chess player could imaginably have become Chess World Champion in a world controlled by the Nazi Party. Scrap Botvinnik, Smyslov, Tal, Fischer (for all his anti-Jewish tirades, in a Nazi world Fischer would have definitively been labeled a Jew and 'treated' as such), and Kasparov from the list of Chess World Champions. Perhaps, chess history would have been re-written by Nazi propagandists so that the names of Steinitz and Lasker do not appear as Chess World Champions. If we were transported into an alternate timeline where the Nazi party developed the atom bomb in 1 January 1945, before the USA did, we would hardly recognize the Chessworld (or much of the rest of the world for that matter.) |
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| Sep-29-08 |
| GrahamClayton: The Junge variation of the Semi-Slav Defence is 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3.  c3 c6 4. f3 dc4 5. a4  b4 6. e3 b5 7. d2  b6Source: David Hooper and Kenneth Whyld "Oxford Companion to Chess", OUP, 1992 |
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| Nov-01-08 |
| garrido: otto junge was champions chileans? |
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| Mar-28-09 |
| Dredge Rivers: <visayanbraindoctor> I don't think Smyslov is Jewish. |
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Aug-29-09
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| vonKrolock: online source <<<Carlos Otto Junge (1887, Concepción, Chile – 1978, Germany) was a Chilean–German chess master. He was <<Chilean Champion in 1922.>> http://www.fenach.cl/FENACH-campeon... The Junge family moved from Chile to Germany in 1930. He was the father of Klaus Junge.> >> |
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