< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 12 OF 12 ·
|Dec-05-12|| ||ughaibu: On the principle that the accused is assumed innocent until proven guilty, the jury is not out. Unless it can be shown that Bogolubow was a member of the Nazi party, the claim that he was has no substance and should be condemned, outright and without reservation.|
|Dec-05-12|| ||jessicafischerqueen: <ughaibu> yes, with respect to the specific claim that <Bogo> did in fact belong to the Nazi party, you are correct.|
You will understand, however, that many people might think it likely that the claim is true.
That said, I'm not going to judge <Bogo> or <Klaus Junge> or <Alekhine> for their connections-such as they may have existed- to the Nazi Regime in such a way that I think "they were reprehensible men."
They were chessmasters first and foremost. Speaking only for myself, I'm a fan of their games, and I find much else in all three men to admire besides their chess ability. There are less admirable aspects to them as well, of course.
At the end of the day, given their lives and times, I think it's a mistake to be too judgmental, particularly with respect to speculative claims that have not been proven.
|Dec-05-12|| ||thomastonk: <jessicafischerqueen> Thank you very much for your response. I am not sure what you have in mind with <I had in fact read your earlier posts on this controversial subject.> To be honest, I know much too less to have an own opinion about Bogo's relation to the Nazis. |
The German town Aachen, where I live since 30 years, has played a prominent role in chess during Nazi times (several tournaments, two national championships). So, I sometimes find something that could be interesting for others, and then I post it.
In 1934 there appeared in that newspaper an open letter from local chess officials directly against Bogoljubov. In later years, when Germany prepared with Bogo's help for the Chess Olympiad Munich 1936 (see http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...), the propaganda against him was not repeated. Instead the newspaper published some of his games and comments.
|Dec-05-12|| ||jessicafischerqueen: <thomastonk> fascinating. Thanks for posting yet another relevant link on the topic as well.|
Here is a visual aid in case anyone wonders what I think after I read a good chess history post:
|Dec-06-12|| ||jessicafischerqueen: <thomastonk> ok here's the story I mentioned yesterday. |
When the Germans captured Kiev in 1941, <Bohatyrchuk> was a member of the city council, and he served for three years under a Nazi puppet government.
<"Was he a life-saver or a collaborator? Boris Spassky, in a 1997 lecture, recalled that he met Bohatrychuk in 1967 and said that during the occupation of Kiev 'he saved hundreds of people.' But Spassky added that when he showed Botvinnik a postcard he received in 1970 from Bohatrychuk, Botvinnik said: "I would personally <<<hang this man>>> in the center of the city.">
When the Red Army retook Kiev, <Boha> fled west and played in a Nazi-sponsored tournament in Poland, where he roomed with <Bogoljubow>.
As for <Bogo>, apparently he helped at least one master escape:
<"Bogolyubov... played a role in bringing another master through the lines. Alexey Selesniev... was living in Stalinio... when it was overrun by the Nazis. Bogolyubov, who had not seen Selesniev in 17 years, apparently managed to get him <<<transferred>>> to Triberg... Selesniev eventually reaached Bordeaux, France, where he died, virtually forgotten, at age 79 in 1967.">
Source- <Soviet Chess 1917-1991> Andrew Soltis. McFarland 2000, p145.
|Dec-06-12|| ||perfidious: <jess> Small wonder Bohatyrchuk fled west-the Soviets would surely have tried and executed him as a collaborator, had he not managed to escape their clutches.|
|Dec-06-12|| ||Benzol: Botvinnik might have wanted to hang him for being one of the few leading players who had a plus score against him.|
|Dec-06-12|| ||perfidious: <Paul> Maybe so; to do as Bohatyrchuk did against Mikhail Moiseevich would have got him burnt at the stake or tried as a witch in earlier days.|
|Dec-06-12|| ||keypusher: <Benzol: Botvinnik might have wanted to hang him for being one of the few leading players who had a plus score against him.>|
I read an article about Bohatyrchuk in Chess Life in the 80s. It recounts that sometime in the 1930s Botvinnik gave Bohatyrchuk a book (don't know which one) with the self-deprecating inscription that he hoped it would improve Bohatyrchuk's opinion of his play. If true, that would indicate that Botvinnik wanted to hang B. later for being (in Botvinnik's eyes) a traitor, not for beating him.
I'd love to read that article again.
|Dec-07-12|| ||jessicafischerqueen: <perfidious> Yes as you say, <Boha> had every reason to believe his life was in imminent danger as the Red Army approached Kiev. |
One of the reasons the Soviets got even angrier with him, however, is that he subsequently joined a very strange "Pro-German army of liberation" on his circuitious, and highly dangerous, journey from Kiev to safe haven in Ottawa.
He loved Kiev, and he always thought of himself as a Ukrainian first, and whatever else they forced him to be after. He'd already risked his life earlier on numerous occasions. He states that he got away with begging off a Soviet chess event on the grounds that Kiev had already changed hands 12 times and he'd prefer to stay home and be with his family in case something even more heinous happened. He also recounts the story when he had to do some fast talking to avoid prison or worse when he inadvertently purchased a fur coat from an NKVD officer in a "sting" operation.
In his own memoirs, he makes it clear that he had little use for either Stalin or Hitler's governments.
Easy call for many of us to make, but perhaps significantly more difficult for someone who lived square in the path of both governments, as <Boha> did.
|Dec-13-12|| ||perfidious: <jess> Never read B's memoirs, but that sounds like a perilous business, from only the details I knew-which were less than what you have provided.|
It was one thing to be in Paul Keres' shoes, and even Keres escaped danger by a mere hair's breadth after playing in events under German auspices. For a player of somewhat lesser stature to have engaged in what the Soviets would have considered outright collaboration would have meant a certain date with the executioner.
Did not Bohatyrchuk wind up in Bavaria (American zone of occupation) in the aftermath of the fall of the Nazis? That was a break, compared to what consequences would have ensued had he been caught in the Soviet Zone or one of the countries they occupied.
|Jun-07-13|| ||morfishine: Ahh, the fascinating world of spies, double-agents and traitors. Before one condemns and urges execution of such persons, its wise to thoroughly examine all the circumstances and factors related to such case(s). |
For example, German spy Hans Schmidt entered Britain in 1941. While others who entered during this time were caught and executed, Schmidt's career flourished. How? Well, he married an English woman, had a child and thus became accepted in English society and was not suspected. However, in the security sweeps of 1944, he was caught and given the option of death or turning against Germany. He turned and fed false information to the Germans for the rest of the war. The British loved him, that is until the war ended. For his service, they game him the option of staying in England since he'd be executed if he returned to Germany. He accepted and spent his remaining years living in utter contempt and scorn by the English. He was no longer any use to them and could never really be trusted since he was a "turned spy".
Or the case of German Admiral Canaris. He hated Hitler and the Nazi regime and spent the war undermining their efforts at every chance. The Allies loved this guy. However, he was finally found out and executed 3 weeks before the war ended. Sadly, the Allies had to admit there was no recourse or course of action to seek justice against the Nazi's. He was after all, a spy.
Or the case of Aldridge Ames. Here we have an American who turned traitor of his own free will and became a Russian spy. Not only were has actions damaging to national interests, his eventual arrest exposed a spy network in Russia that led to the execution of at least 10 informers. A truly despicable and reprehensible character. Why he was given a life sentence and not the death penalty, I'll never know.
Or the case of Benedict Arnold. Here, we have a person who made great sacrifice both in body and personal fortune for a cause, America, before turning. His was a unique class of traitor. Feeling betrayed by a Congress that refused to honor their promises and his claims, he "went over".
I've studied Arnold for years and was a long time apologist before softening my stance here. Why? (1) Arnold was a vain man, first and foremost a business man interested in wealth & (2) he did not exhaust all his options before turning traitor. So, I don't have much sympathy for him anymore. Here too, Arnold lived out his life in England and was also not received very warmly since he was, after all, a traitor.
Finally, I haven't studied <Boha> in depth. However, he appears to fall into that class of "traitor" who is "caught between a rock and a hard place" so to speak. Its hard to formulate an opinion on this class of "traitor" without actually being in that situation. One needs to analyze all his actions to see where his true loyalty lay.
Not all spies or traitors are executed. A lot depends on if the individual acted on their own free will or from an outside influence. The amount of damage done also needs to be taken into account, as well as creditable actions.
|Aug-15-13|| ||playground player: It would be nice if chess could interfere with politics to the same extent that politics interferes with chess.|
|Aug-17-13|| ||motiff: Hello everyone:
Can anyone starting facilitate Bogoljubov vs T Schuster 1952 in Stuttgart?.
Bogoljubov played one match against T Schuster of two games, the last two of his life before dying from liver cancer. The game G Schuster vs Bogoljubov is known and is in the database of games, but the other not.
If anyone can get would be great.
|Nov-06-13|| ||Karpova: New York 1924, Match against Kupchik ends with +3 -1 =2 in favor of Bogoljubov.|
From page 272 of the September 1924 'Neue Wiener Schachzeitung'
|Jan-16-14|| ||RedShield: The only quote I've seen attributed to Bogo is <When I am white I win because I am white. When I am black I win because I am Bogoljubov.> |
But now, courtesy of Lothar Schmid, we have:
<Chess is a foolish thing; sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't work.>
|Jan-16-14|| ||keypusher: <RedShield>
Supposedly he also said <I don't play well in England.>
|Jan-16-14|| ||RedShield: Our bier didn't agree with him.|
|Jan-25-14|| ||PhilFeeley: Why is this game not here, when over a dozen other Rellstab-Bogoljubov games are?|
click for larger view
Position before black's 20th move. Found this on Spraggett's blog. His question: Do you play 21...g5?
|Jan-25-14|| ||thomastonk: <PhilFeeley: Why is this game not here, when over a dozen other Rellstab-Bogoljubov games are?> I don't understand the logic. We have a long dozen of games between both men here. Why does this mean we should have this particular one? BTW, I have 23 in my collection.|
<Ludwig Rellstab-Bogoljubov> Really? I have it as Bogoljubov vs Rellstab. (And Spraggett, too.)
If you are missing a certain game and you have it, then you can submit it here: PGN Upload Utility. But please be careful: every mistake is costly.
If you don't have it, there are many helpful people here - including myself - that will try to help you, if you ask friendly.
|Apr-14-14|| ||waustad: <RedShield>I've seen the black-white quote attributed to Johannes Zukertort if I recall correctly.|
|Apr-14-14|| ||john barleycorn: Bogoljubow suffered from idiosyncrasy against whole nations:
"I cannot play in England" and his results showed it.|
|Apr-26-15|| ||dark.horse: Rather dashing in white tie.|
|May-10-15|| ||TheFocus: <To have a knight planted in your game at K6 is worse than a rusty nail in your knee> - Efim Bogolubow.|
|May-17-15|| ||TheFocus: <The young people have read my book. Now I have no chance> - Efim Bogoljubov.|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 12 OF 12 ·