< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Jun-28-04|| ||crafty: 39. ♘d3 ♕e2 40. ♕a6 c5 41. ♖e1 ♕d2 42. ♖g1 (eval 1.27; depth 14 ply; 1000M nodes)|
|Jun-28-04|| ||misguidedaggression: Thanks crafty, but actually I was talking about 24.Nd6 which should win the exchange. In my opinion, white's 24th-26th moves are more baffling than the draw at the end. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||ray keene: 23...rcf8 NOT rf7
altho many sources give the move order we have above i am convinced that this game only makes sense if blacks 23rd move is rcf8. that wd explain whites defensive f3 which is otherwise incomprehensible-with that correction all subsequent moves are legal and sensible. is it likely that two such tactical geniuses as alekhine and keres wd overlook the winning coup nd6 for so long. if i am right this is a highly important correction to an otherwise flawed and frequently published record of a game between two of the titans!!
|Jul-14-04|| ||Legend: Yes, it should be 23...Rcf8 not Rf7. I looked up this game in the book "Paul Keres: Photographs and Games" , which is collection of all Keres` games and there it was 23...Rcf8. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||Lawrence: Mr. Keene, you must mean "unlikely." |
|Jul-14-04|| ||beenthere240: Is there any merit to 35. Rxa5? |
|Jul-14-04|| ||acirce: Except that it loses your king. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||WMD: <Mr. Keene, you must mean "unlikely."> No, but he omitted the rhetorical question mark. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||beenthere240: Sorry 36. Rxa5 |
|Jul-14-04|| ||beenthere240: The point is that since the black rook can't recapture (weak back rank), white will win the a and b pawns while protecting the white b pawn. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||WMD: Rxa5 allows Black a perpetual by unprotecting his own weak back rank. A sample line runs 36.Rxa5 Rf8 37.Qc6 Qd1+ 38.Kh2 Ne3 39.Ne6 Nf1+ 48.Kh1 Ne3+. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||ray keene: <legend> an excellent piece of historical cleansing of the archives achieved today-the massive verhoeven skinner book of every game played by alekhine also gives the wrong version!! delighted to see we now have the right version. well done all round and also to <misguidedaggression> who first spotted the anomaly of the soi-disant -missed - nd6. " why ,so. now have we done a good day's work ." richard III act 2 scene 1.rescuing an alekhine keres score gives me a very warm feeling. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||WMD: <altho many sources give the move order we have above i am convinced that this game only makes sense if blacks 23rd move is rcf8.> Nice work. Shall I inform Edward Winter or will you? |
|Jul-14-04|| ||beenthere240: Thanks WMD. I didn't see that the knight could force a perpetual check. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||ray keene: <wmd> i dont mind doing it-how does one get in touch with him-i rarely follow his work .by the way-did you get my question about your chess phd? you seem extraordinarily well informed with all sorts of reference matter at your fingertips-eg the material on the wanted paedophile brian eley-i wd not have known where to find that-but-then again- i dont read kingpin either. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||Calli: I notice that there are three AA-Keres games from Salzburg 1943. What is the reason for the third game? Was it a playoff or just an offhand contest?|
Thought I would ask, since everyone has his reference materials out.
|Jul-14-04|| ||Lawrence: I have the impression that <WMD> is extraordinarily well informed about EVERYTHING! |
<WMD>, thanks for that correction, I read the sentence the wrong way round. Ummmm.....did you say Edward Winter?
|Jul-14-04|| ||WMD: <<wmd> i dont mind doing it-how does one get in touch with him-i rarely follow his work .> |
Try him by email at firstname.lastname@example.org. See his Chess Notes page at:
Who knows, if you struck up a friendly correspondence with him, he might give you an easier time in future. Or would that be too cynical a ploy?
<you seem extraordinarily well informed with all sorts of reference matter at your fingertips>
I would have replied earlier, but was a bit down about Mickey's defeat. Chess is one of my few interests, which means I can follow it closely. Only concerned about chess politics to the extent that they intrude onto the game itself. Impressed by Kavalek's observation regarding Kasparov, "When the truth is inconvenient for him he has been known to resort to 'fables', and to become angry when they are revealed for what they are."
|Jul-14-04|| ||Legend: <Calli: I notice that there are three AA-Keres games from Salzburg 1943. What is the reason for the third game? Was it a playoff or just an offhand contest?> |
Thanks for pointing that out, the game where Alekhine won in 51 moves, is actually from Salzburg 1942 not `43!
|Jul-14-04|| ||Calli: <Legend> Thanks! Are you going submit the correction to Chessgames? If not, I can, using the handy new correction link :-) |
|Jul-14-04|| ||ray keene: <wmd> actually i really dont follow edward winter at all- i just see him as a naughty schoolboy who likes annoying his elders-he was a schoolboy at cardinal newman school in brighton and taught chess by my friend julian simpole who cd beat him with his eyes closed literally-winter was about 15 years old when i was already british champion.i am puzzled when i occasionaly bump into his stuff that he always refers to himself as we-is he descended from royalty or are there two of him? btw kavalek is pretty well right in his assessment! ps what are you going to do for a name when tony and george finally admit they never existed? pps everyone seems very shattered by mickeys loss after the goalmouth was wide open twice- and he kept on missing-it has been deathly quiet today.in my opinion as a result. |
|Jul-14-04|| ||WMD: <<wmd> actually i really dont follow edward winter at all- i just see him as a naughty schoolboy who likes annoying his elders> I dub this the Keene-Schiller-Evans-Parr line. Didn't Winter act as editor of a book on the World Champions to which you contributed?|
<he was a schoolboy at cardinal newman school in brighton and taught chess by my friend julian simpole who cd beat him with his eyes closed literally> Do you know anything about his father?
<btw kavalek is pretty well right in his assessment!> When Campo called the first K-K match off, isn't it true that negotiations about terminating the match had already been in motion for some time? And that the first suggestion had come from Kasparov's camp?
|Jul-14-04|| ||ray keene: <wmd> i contributed to a book on world champions which winter compiled but this was 24 years ago when he was in his early 20's. i had no idea of his identity then and he has always been very careful to conceal himself-no pictures for example.a foto of winter wd be worth quite a bit. in fact when he contacted me to contribute to the book i mixed him up with someone much older at the bbc whom i thought to be an amateur chess historian and to whom i had given a couple of chess lessons a few years earlier!!|
we had perfectly cordial relations to start with -all by post-but when i co wrote batsford chess openings with kasparov he accused us in print of only having ghost written contributions -not the real gk. since i had been with garry in moscow when he wrote his bit out by hand this annoyed me more than somewhat as it struck at the very credibility of the book.i then hit on the idea of auctioning the original gk manuscript for charity and putting it on show in the batsford offices for inspection beforehand so the handwritng could be verified-which a number of experts did. winter never forgave me for proving him wrong-he attacked me left right and centre and i used to reply. then he wrote something complaining about an article i had written , alleging it was without foundation --but i found the source for the story in one of his own books. at that point i realised there was absolutely no point in trying to engage in rational debate with the man. he will never admit error-in the early stage of our relationship this was not the case but it got much worse. eventually i just decided to ignore him. i think he is a very frustrated very weak chessplayer who gets his enjoyment out of chess by being noticed-especially if he is noticed by someone with a reputation or title. i decided i was not going to play his game and havent done so for many years.i know nothing about his father excpt the family address in brighton which julian simpole told me. is his father remarkable in some way?? i have tried to be fair to him -winter fils not winter pere-in my columns. i never use them to attack him. in fact i recall i even published a couple of his wins in the times on one occasion and gave him some credence as a chess archivist.
kasparov asking for the first karpov match to be stopped-i was with campo in dubai when he more or less made up his mind to stop the match. he summoned me to his hotel room and said-i have just had a call from moscow. anatoly cannot continue.
take a look at lawrence days insights on his section into possible use of drugs. medical experts in moscow later alleged to me that karpov wd have collapsed if he had tried to play another game. i think this canard about the proposal to stop first coming from the kasparov camp boils down to a kasparov reaction to some of campos sillier suggestions ie having a several month long postponement or starting a second match with karpov 2 points up and with draw odds.if you are thinking about this then why not stop the match -period-is what i believe was kasparovs reaction,which-i am sure you will agree- is not quite the same as the kasparov camp being the originators of the suggestion of stopping the match. later spin from fide tried to suggest that i was also in favour of stopping it . all i suggested was that if campo were going to stop the match anyway-which i did not recommend- then he shd make karpov and kasparov co champions or even put the title in abeyance since i knew the alternative would infuriate kasparov and also be unfair to him.imagine what fischer wd have done if one of his matches had been stopped when he was on a roll.
|Jul-14-04|| ||ray keene: <wmd> i have continued this post on the kibbitzers cafe since it seeemed to be wandering off the keres alekhine topic. |
|Feb-13-06|| ||malbase: Move 23 Tc8-f8 or Rc8 - f8 appears in the Weltgeschichte des Schachs, Vol. 21 game 21-211
Keres - Aljechin, Spanisch. Most sources use the series for the online collections. Many books after
the source as well.
Reinfeld in an older book Keres 1934 - 37 has a different order of moves in more than several Keres games of that period, than appear in other books
and online downloads.
It is difficult to determine who is right.
Although in the Reinfeld book, Kotov's notes make sense.
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