< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 1 OF 4 ·
|May-04-03|| ||Rookpawn: Either the 50-move rule was not in effect of Hansen failed to notice that he could claim a draw anytime after 141. Kd4. (I think that 100 moves rather than 50 were required at the time.) |
|May-04-03|| ||Sneaky: I think this is one of the special endings where the superior side gets an extension on the 50 moves. |
Very informative. The final position here is the one to remember. White threatens mate in two different ways, and Black can't save himself with checks because the bishop provides shelter.
|May-27-03|| ||Shadout Mapes: What if 160.Bb3? |
|May-27-03|| ||ZScore: Shadout Mapes, if 160. Bb3 Rc6+. It is imperative that white's king stays where it is in order to corner the black king. |
|May-27-03|| ||Doctor Who: 160.Re7 or 160.Re8 win just as easily of course. |
|May-27-03|| ||patzer2: My solution was 160 Ra2+,Kb1; 161 Ra5,Rc6 (to prevent the threat of 162 Bd3+,Kc1; 163 Ra1+,Rb1; 164 RXb1 mate), 162 Re5 and black must surrender the rook to avoid 163 Re1 mate.|
In the game, after 160 Re5, if 160... Rb8 (if 160...Rc6, then 161 Re1+ mate or if 160... Kb1 then 161 Re1+ mate or if 160...Rb1 then 161 Ra5 mate), then 161 Ra5+,Kb1; 162 Bd3+,Kc1; 163 Ra1+,Rb1; 164 RXb1 mate.
|May-27-03|| ||kevin86: I believe that in the case of R+b vs R;R+N vs R or 2N vs P-there is an automatic extension to 100 moves. It would make a good debate. |
|May-27-03|| ||ksadler: Can someone explain to me why there would be an automatic extension (and further why I have not heard of it)...I'll assume it is for endings that cannot be won in less than 50 moves. I don't believe it (but I am not a TD). |
|Jun-11-03|| ||patonelli: Doctor Who: <160.Re7 or 160.Re8 win just as easily of course.>|
Hmm 160.Re7 Rb7 161.Re5! :)
|Jun-11-03|| ||caseyclyde: In the "FIDE Laws of Chess" published in 1984 the 50-move rule was extended to 75 moves for the following positions:|
(a) King + Rook + Bishop against King + Rook
(b) King + 2 Knights against King + pawn
(c) King + Queen + pawn one square from promotion against King + Queen
(d) King + Queen against King + 2 Knights
(e) King + Queen against King + 2 Bishops
(f) King + 2 Bishops against King + Knight
In 1992 FIDE changed back to one rule for all endings: 50 moves.
|Jul-16-03|| ||kevin86: How about this! a win in 1986,a draw today-if caseyclyde is correct. |
|Feb-21-04|| ||Shadow 812: A monster of an endgame, I also under the believe that the game should have been drawn at move 141 under the fifty move rule, however Caseyclyde may well be right:
Move 51.Kc3! avoiding an insidious trap
52.Kc4 Rxd3 (steals the Bishop)
Move 90 Black was forced to jettison the pawn because if
And finally after move 160 (1-O) because
|Feb-15-06|| ||jmi: Interesting puzzle of the day.
I first thot of Ra1+ but it led nowhere as it leaves the White Rook vulnerable and the White Bishop cannot move else the Black Rook will run the White King all over the place. I'd realise the problem was the White Rook's vulnerability in going towards the a-file. It was then I spotted the Black Rook cannot stop the White Rook the moment it goes Ra5+ and voila! :)
Further calculation reveals Black is powerless as it's check all the way to mate. :)
|Feb-15-06|| ||mravikiran: After 160.Bb3, 160. ... Rc5 would be good. anything worng with that?|
|Feb-15-06|| ||Fan of Leko: 149..Rc7?? was a horrible blunder. As every Russian schoolboy knows Rh8, Rh6 and Ra7 are the only moves that draw.|
|Feb-15-06|| ||alefromitaly: I spent 2 minutes hitting my head on "How can I unlock white bishop after black's Rc6", then after shutting down my mobile (I'm on a trip) mountain dawn's landscape suggested me how blind I was.|
|Feb-15-06|| ||dzechiel: I was in such a hurry, that I overlooked one of black's replies and missed the solution. <sigh>|
Move 160! Whoa, somebody really wants to win this one.
|Feb-15-06|| ||al wazir: I can't believe that white needed all 160 moves to win (164 for mate). Why did he wait so long to win the last pawn, as he could have done, for example, by playing 77. Rh1 ? Was it because of the 50-move rule?|
|Feb-15-06|| ||OBIT: I checked the finish of this game against an endgame database. Black's mistake came on move 149, so he held the draw for over 50 moves. Bummer. Instead of 149. Rc7?, there are three moves that maintain a drawn position: Ra7, Rh8, or Rh6. Now, if it is clear to you that Ra7 holds the draw while Rc7 loses, you are w-a-y better than I am.|
The rules used to allow this endgame to go 100 moves, which is why this particular game is so ridiculously long. I'm pretty sure the rule has since been changed, which is good, since 100 moves was downright sadistic - the endgame is a theoretical draw, so why prolong the torture for the defender? In fact, the longest tournament game on record is another one of these R+B vs R endings. In that game, the defender managed to survive the 100 moves. (It's in this database, by the way. Just do a search for a game over 200 moves.)
In my opinion, it's silly to ever extend the 50-move rule, even for endings where the win takes more than 50 moves in the worst-case scenario. The reason I think this is: (a) those 50+ move win scenarios probably come up less than one game in a million - you might see the ending occasionally, but, the "perfect play" win from the game position will usually take well under 50 moves (b) even if a 50+ move win scenario did come up, one or both players will mess up, so this "perfect play" assumption is pointless. In fact, try winning the K+Q vs K+R ending sometime against a computer with an endgame database. With best play, it takes at most 31 moves to mate or capture the rook, but I don't know anyone who can win it by move 50.
|Feb-15-06|| ||patzer2: Plugged today's (160. ?) puzzle into Fritz 8 to verify other possible solutions, and the computer initially just wanted to call it a draw based on the 50 move rule. I then had the program analyze the position after 159...Ka1, without regard to any previous moves, with the following results:|
click for larger view
Analysis by Fritz 8:
1. (#6): 160.Re5 Rb5 161.Bxb5
2. (#7): 160.Re7 Rb7 161.Re5 Rb2 162.Ra5+ Ra2 163.Rxa2+
3. (#7): 160.Re8 Rb8 161.Re5 Rb2 162.Ra5+ Ra2 163.Rxa2+
4. (#8): 160.Ra2+ Kb1 161.Rh2 Ka1 162.Rh5 Rb5 163.Bxb5
5. (#9): 160.Re4 Rb7 161.Re5
P.S. The solution I posted May 27, 2003 also works, but it's not as quick as the Fritz 8 solution. Note that 160. Re7 Rb7 or 160. Re8 Rb8 force 161. Re5, transposing to the 160. Re5 solution to avoid stalemate (i.e. 161. Rxb7?? = or 161. Rxb8?? =) and reach the shortest mate from that point.
|Feb-15-06|| ||al wazir: <OBIT>: Interesting points. I imagine even a GM wouldn't necessarily win, say, K+B+N vs. K in the minimum number of moves, let alone some of the more recondite situations. But in the olden days GMs didn't have to know that stuff. They could usually count on an adjournment to intervene, whereupon their seconds would research it for them, and the game would end according to the theoretically correct outcome.|
|Feb-15-06|| ||Peligroso Patzer: It is not correct <Doctor Who> to say that "160.Re7 or 160.Re8 win just as easily of course". On those ranks, Black can block with his Rook (160. ... Rb7, or 160. ... Rb8), and if 161 Rxb7 (or 161. Rxb8), it is stalemate. By moving his Rook to the fifth rank (160. Re5), White is prepared to answer 160. ... Rb5 with BISHOP takes ... .|
|Feb-15-06|| ||An Englishman: Good Evening: I got this one, quite a pleasant surprise.|
|Feb-15-06|| ||prinsallan: Nowhere near the solution today. Cant calculate all these lines yet. Hopefully I will be able to one day in the far future.|
|Feb-15-06|| ||patzer2: Can't find any information to officially verify any historical exceptions to the 50-move rule, but according to the current laws (i.e. rules) of chess at http://www.fide.com/official/handbo...:|
<9.3 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if
a. he writes his move on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture, or
b. the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture.>
P.S. Oviously the current FIDE rule writers are not obligated by the U.S. rules of political correctness in avoiding the personal pronoun "he" when writing policy. Many years back the pronouns he, his or him referred to both genders, but in the U.S. this is no longer the case. Of course this does not mean female American players are exempt from the 50-move draw rule.
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