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Luc Winants vs Magnus Carlsen
European Club Cup (2003), Rethymnon, Crete, rd 4, Oct-01
Trompowsky Attack: General (A45)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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sac: 23.Rxc4 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: 24. Qxc4 was easy to find, but I didn't guess that black would play 24...e5.
Oct-13-18  Walter Glattke: 24.Qf3 Be7 25.Qxb7 0-0 26.Qxe7!? Rxa4 favaurable for black. 26.Nb6 Rxa2 27.Nd7 Rfa8 unclear
Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  OrangeTulip: Carlsen being only 12, I suppose. But playing against hypertalented kids is also a challenge, you have to fight and defeat your underestimation
Oct-13-18  Honey Blend: I think the puzzle should have started at move 23. Also, 24. ... e5 looks to be a response to the threat of 25. c6 bxc6 26. ♕xc6+, as now the ♕ covers the c6 square.
Oct-13-18  Huddsblue: Hmmm. Maybe my chess knowledge isn't deep enough, but the first four-five moves don't appear to part of any combination or puzzle.
Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  messachess: It is a positional win. Black has no play and white likely will force a win of the Bishop--or mate.
Oct-13-18  goodevans: <Honey Blend: I think the puzzle should have started at move 23.>

Yes, that would have been much, much better.

Oct-13-18  mel gibson: I wasn't sure.
Stockfish 9 says:

24. Qxc4

(24. Qxc4 (♕b3xc4
♗f8-e7 ♘a4-b6 ♖a8-d8 ♕c4-b5+ ♔e8-f8 ♘b6-d7+ ♔f8-g8 ♗f4-c7 f7-f6 ♗c7xd8 ♗e7xd8 ♕b5xb7 ♕g6-d3 ♖f1-e1 ♕d3-d2 ♖e1xe6 ♔g8-f7 ♖e6-e4 ♔f7-g6 b4-b5 h7-h5 ♕b7-c6 ♗d8-a5 b5-b6 ♖h8-d8 ♘d7-e5+ ♔g6-h7 ♘e5-f3 ♕d2-c2 ♖e4-h4 ♔h7-h6 ♔h1-h2 ♗a5xb6 ♕c6xb6 ♖d8-a8 a2-a4 ♖a8xa4 ♖h4xa4 ♕c2xa4 ♕b6-d6 ♕a4-b4 ♘f3-d4) +5.40/34 )

score for White +5.40 depth 34.

Oct-13-18  saturn2: Black has material advantage but is lacking development. If Black achieves Qd3 with an exchange of queens he would retain the advantage.

I went for 24 Qxc4 after which black cannot respond RxNa4.

Rather than the game moves I was expecting something like

24. Qxc4 Be7 25. Qb5+ Kf8 26. Qxb7 Re8
and the pawns on the queen side decide.

Oct-13-18  saturn2: Here again an alternative opening with which I trap blitz opponents once in a while.

3...g5 4. Be5 f6 5. e3 fxe5 6. Qh5#

Oct-13-18  TheaN: Saturday 13 October 2018

<24.?>

I sincerely agree this puzzle should have started on move 23. Now, Qxc4 is simply part of the started combination, and I actually diverted with 24.c6? just to create something else. Of course it's nonsense after 24....cxb3 25.cxb7 and even Qe4 would win, but Black just play Rd8. Would have played Qxc4 OTB, and not sure whether it merits a Saturday start.

Oct-13-18  WorstPlayerEver: Stupid puzzle.
Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  malt: Have 24.Q:c4 e5 (...R:a4 25.Qb5+)
25.Nb6 Rd8 26.B:e5 Rd2 27.Bg3
(27.Qb5+ Qc6)
27...Be7 28.Qf4 Rd8 29.Re1

24...Be7 looks stronger than ...e5

Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: Perhaps today's Saturday (24. ?) puzzle should have started at move 23. However, the exchange sacrifice 23. Rxc4! is much easier to play if you know White has lost castling privileges.

Nonetheless, I went for 24. Qxc4 and correctly guessed the first three moves of the combination (i.e. 24. Qxc4 e5 25. Nb6 Ra3 26. Bxe5 +-).

However, after 26...Qe6, instead of 27. Re1 +- (+6.92 @ 33 ply, Stockfish 9), I went for 27. Qc1 +- (+5.97 @ 33 ply, Stockfish 9) when Black has nothing better than giving up the Rook for two pawns and a clearly lost position (i.e. 27. Qc1 Rxh3+ 28. gxh3 +-).

Though 27. Re1 +- and 27. Qc1 +- are both clearly decisive, they are not the two strongest winning options.

According to the computer, the two strongest moves after 26...Qe6 are 27. Qb5+! Qc6 28. Qe2 +- (+8.14 @ 33 ply, Stockfish 9) and 27. Nd5! Qxe5 28. Qb5+ Kd8 29. Qxb7 +- (+7.41 @ 33 ply, Stockfish 9).

P.S.: Black's game goes bad with the flawed demolition sacrifice 13...Nxf2? allowing 14. 0-0! +- (+3.55 @ 26 ply, Stockfish 9).

Instead, 13...g5! 14. Bg3 h5 15. Rc1 Nxc3 16. Rxc3 h4 17. Bc7 Rc8 = (0.08 @ 31 ply, Stockfish 9) holds the game level.

Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: Then 12-year-old Magnus Carlsen, rated 2385 at the time of this game, has since made a lot of progress. Don't recall seeing many flawed tactical shots by the world champion lately.
Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: White has a knight for a rook and a pawn.

Black threatens cxb3 and Qd3.

The first move that comes to mind is 24.Qxc4:

A) 24... Rxa4 25.Qb5+ Kd8 (25... Ke7 26.Bd6+ Kd8 27.Qb6+ Kc8(d7) 28.Qc7#) 26.Rd1+ Bd6 (26... Kc8 27.Qd7#; 26... Ke7 27.Qd7+ Kf6 28.Qd4+ and mate next) 27.Rxd6+ followed by Qxa4 wins decisive material.

B) 24... e5 25.Nb6 (25.Qb5+ Qc6 26.Qxc6+ bxc6 27.Nb6 Rxa2 28.Bxe5 f6 doesn't look very good for White)

B.1) 25... Rd8 26.Bxe5 and White seems to have enough compensation for the exchange.

B.2) 25... exf4 26.Re1+ Be7 27.Nxa8 looks good for White due to the queenside majority and Black's lack of coordination.

C) 24... Be7 25.Qb5+ Kf8 (25... Kd8 26.Rd1+ wins) 26.Qxb7 looks winning (26... Rxa4 27.Qc8+ Bd8 28.Qxd8#).

Oct-13-18  AlicesKnight: Qxc4 seems simple enough, but then there is no forced line, though Black is partially paralysed and the K wide open. (Later) Agree with <patzer2> and others; one move too late.
Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Journey keeny keyin qc4um clump jinky pe5um ebbers keysy lucks to it eves 24Be7 kestrel keyin cuffy keyom hoody douche lunkum essayums keyon kinky keyim 1 it ok oinky keyin lunky nb6um bufflog lucks to it evict,

25.Re1 kestrel
keyin jobum ebber keyim 0 1,

it ok oinky keyin keyat ra3um auldy lucks to it diver 25Rd8 kestrel keyin deromp clung ebber lunkums doorhoody keyim 0 1 it ok oinky keyin lucks to it evicty 26.Bxe5 kestrel keyin jodum ebber keyim 3 4 it ok oinky keyin lucks to it evicty 26.Re1 kestrel keyin jodum ebber keyim 2 3 it ok oinky keyin junior rucky clung keany clammy lamey camel method whippy puddy dacquiri quick keyin bunky binary keysy hydrate keyin hosty hotsy vociferous flave it's vasty raily keyers beggy crummys keumy zenith it's vasty hooty keyin lairy keygo biggy keyin canmans zarathustra chintzy branches keyat ritzy cymbals crabby keyat qc4um clump keyin junior rucky clung lamey camel method whippy puddy dacquiri quick keyin bunky binary keysy anyum hooty keyin hotsy vociferous flave it's vasty raily keyers beggy crummys keumy zenith keyshint keumy keyon kinky lucks to it civs 24.Qxc4 e5 kestrel keyin clump cuffy keyon kinky ebbers keysy fount fordy flush fourth lunky qc4um cubby crock keyon kinky cuffy clung chump cully cutty decky ducky douche cuddy cuffy found flung guffy doggy duggy clung duffy doffy fundy keynub cuddles foggy keyim lucks to it eves 24Be7 kestrel keyin cuffy keyom douche lunkum essayump keyim 1 it ok oinky keyin lucks to it bivvy 25.Nb6 kestrel keyin jobum buffhod lucks to it evict 25.Re1 kestrel keyin jobum ebber keyim 0 1 it ok oinky keyin lucks to it avowy 25Ra3,

kestrel keyin deromp lunky
auldy lucks to it diver,

25Rd8 kestrel keyin deromp clung ebber lunkums doorhoody keyim 0 1 it ok oinky keyin lucks to it evicty 26.Bxe5 kestrel keyin jodum ebber keyim 3 4 it ok oinky keyin lucks to it evicty 26.Re1 kestrel keyin jodum ebber keyim 2 3 it ok oinky keyin mucky mocky lowum mully crown keyon kinky keyin kongy keynub bustle kenyou lunky douche lucky booty keythere bunty tubby bourbon hobby hubby blush brush keyer keuny keyon kinky rowdy rucky crown keyom hucky hockys umsum cuffy joint keiny giteves keiny githind junior keyin qc4um clump?

Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Breunor: I couldn't figure out (and didn't see) why black played 24 e5. In checking the computer, Stockfish gives it as best! This is the problem with computer analysis sometimes, you can see the move but not necessarily the why. But if black plays for instance 24 Be7, then Stockfish gives 25 c6. So I guess 25 e5 is best for black so that the black queen can defend c6.
Oct-13-18  Walter Glattke: e5 denies Bd6, pawn transforming with c7 Qb8, and the interference of Qc4 and Rf1 to Pf7, after e5 Bh2 f6 this doesn't happen, why should not Stockfish propose that move!?
Oct-13-18  Walter Glattke: Oh, good, Bxe5 Qb6+ stabilize queen's wing so far.
Oct-13-18  Walter Glattke: 26.Qb5+ Ke7?? 27.Qd7+ Kf6 28.REP Nd5# or 28.DEM Be3# (no Rf3) but e5 played allows now 26.Qb5+!? Qc6!
Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Breunor: I didn't say Stockfish should deny the move, and I didn't say that above. I said I didn't understand why it is the best move and Stockfish doesn't necessarily help a player understand why a move is best.
Oct-13-18  mel gibson: <Oct-13-18
Premium Chessgames Member Breunor: I didn't say Stockfish should deny the move, and I didn't say that above. I said I didn't understand why it is the best move and Stockfish doesn't necessarily help a player understand why a move is best.>

With Stockfish you can always put in the alternative move & let it calculate a score so Stockfish is definitely a help in understanding any game - if you use it wisely.

Oct-14-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Breunor: That's what I did, I tried Be7 and it gave white's move as c6 So I speculated that e5 was to have the queen defend c6. That is what I said in my post above, I wish people would read what I said before criticizing me by taking a sentence out of context.

So yes if course it is a very helpful tool but there are limits to computer analysis especially for medium or weaker strength players where showing the next 15 moves without context may Not be as helpful as a post on the key ideas.

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