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List (Computer) vs Shredder (Computer)
WCCC (2003), Graz AUT
Sicilian Defense: Closed Variation (B23)  ·  0-1


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sac: 18...Bxb2 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
Nov-23-03  Benjamin Lau: How come it's "Black to Play and Win" but White gets the point?
Nov-23-03  erikcu: score 1-0, move 33 0-1
typo on score I suppose
Premium Chessgames Member Oops, sorry about that. Bad PGN file (header and score didn't match). All better now.
Nov-23-03  TheLighterSide: 18.Bxb2, Surely Shredder could not see all the ends, was is some kind of silicon intuition? List was out of formation and Shredder pounced on the situation, impressive!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eggman: <18.Bxb2, Surely Shredder could not see all the ends>

LighterSide, just so you know, if a move was played by Black (as is the case here), then it should read 18...Bxb2 (note the "..."). If you neglect to use this it could in a given instance create confusion as to which move you are indicating.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: 18...Bxb2 is a wild move for a computer to want to play. This kind of computer would make mincemeat of most human players; it seems like anti-computer strategies might not work against it.
Nov-23-03  Benjamin Lau: Shredder and Deep Junior are the most famous programs for making speculative sacs. They like to give up material for a strong attack. The programmers for Shredder must really trust its positional skills. It usually plays d4 as white. (Click Shredder)
Apr-29-05  ryanpd: <Benjamin Lau> Rightly so in my opinion. Both programs are extremely positional for computers. It is impressive how human-like their play can be at times.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Benzol: <ryanpd> <Ben Lau> left the site (see his profile for the reasons). I'm hoping he will change his mind and return in the near future.
May-02-05  ryanpd: <benzol> That is unfortunate. I did not know him though.

By the way, I have examined this position with several strong engines, and the only ones that find the move at all are Deep Junior and Shredder; and they both find the move in under a second! After five minutes of evaluation, Hiarcs 9, Deep Fritz 8, and Crafty 19 are all still wanting to play the much worse 18. ... Bb6?!.

From now on, I am trusting the analysis of my games only to Junior and Shredder.

(By the way, for a good laugh, try analyzing that position with GNUchess: It thinks black is lost and suggests absurdities like Kf7 and so on lol)

May-03-05  Catholic Bishop: guitar beats piano
Jan-20-07  RightRook: Well, I too have tested this move
on Chess Master 9000, and
the Toni personality finds...Bxb2 in less than a second!

Josh (age 9) finds it in only 6 seconds!

However, the Tal personality takes 1 min. and 29 sec...!

So from now on, I will play "Toni"
on CM-9000....:-)



Jul-23-07  adnol: Hey guys, as I'm a beginner chess player I can't come up with it myself, but why not 9. ... Qb6 for Shredder? It seems to me that the next best move for List would be to back his dark square bishop to g3 and the black could follow with f6 and white would be slightly behind in development as both his bishop and night would be stack to f3.

What do you guys think?

Jul-24-07  adnol: anyone? :-)
Premium Chessgames Member
  tpstar: <adnol> On 9 ... Qb6!? White could try 10. f3 Removing the Defender of the Ne5 to win material. Play might continue 10 ... Nf2 11. Bxe5 Nxh1 12. Nc7+ Kf8 13. Nxa8:

click for larger view

In this sharp position, White has very good chances to extricate the Na8 while the Nh1 will probably be traded for the Nh3 or else lost outright. So consider how Black would handle 9 ... Qb6!? 10. f3.

Jul-24-07  adnol: Hey <tpstar>, thanks for your reply. The thing that confuses me here is if
9. ... Qb6 10. f3, black could reply with
10. .. bf2+ 11. Kd1 and then perhaps Ne3+ and coordinate his queen according the white's next move. My intentions here are to keep the king in the center, and try to subdue him with the queen, bishop and knight. What do you think?
Premium Chessgames Member
  tpstar: <adnol> Your instinct is right on target, trying to punish White for such a silly opening. But I'm not sure this variation is sound tactically. On 9 ... Qb6 10. f3 Bf2+!? 11. Ke2:

click for larger view

Note the Bf4 covers e3 preventing a Queen check, also 11 ... Ne3?! 12. Nxf2 wins a piece while now threatening 13. Bxe3 winning another piece, or 11 ... Be3?! 12. fxg4. White should be able to stave off any immediate attack and then consolidate the material advantage later. Still, it's always good to evaluate these possibilities. =)

Jul-24-07  adnol: <tpstar> ok, now I see.

Thanks for all the help

May-13-15  mrandersson: Even now 12 years later stockfish 6 likes all shredders.
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