< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Dec-04-04|| ||ughaibu: 8.Qe1 Be3 looks okay for black. |
|Dec-04-04|| ||DanielBryant: No need to spam. |
|Dec-04-04|| ||chessgames.com: FearMySkillz: <Rule 2. No spamming, advertising, or duplicating posts.> |
|Feb-23-05|| ||ongyj: <Chesspatch> 5.e3 would have returned Black the pawn with an inferior position for White in my personal opinion. After 5...Nxe3 either the Queen runs away or 6.Bxe3 Bxe3, White's position seems somewhat scattered. |
I don't mean it in any form of personal attacks or insult, but I truely found this a great game on Black's part, rather than a big joke to be laughed at. 5...Nxh2!? truely sparked off this game. In fact if not for 5...Nxh2 I find it difficult for Black to continue at all. Perhaps I'm just too weak, or that I don't understand enough of this position. But when I played several experimental games in this position(other than 5...Nxh2!?) against a friend who I usually outplay, I lost all games as Black. Anyway, please let me offer what I have to say before the community refutes me and continue laughing at this game and maybe myself:)
Firstly, 8.Qe1 Be3+ 9.Kd1 Qxe1+ 10.Kxd1 Bxc3 11.Nd2(Black threatens ...Bxb2) Now Black may play 11...Nxd2+ Kxd2 cxd4 with an even game or slightly better for White in my opinion. I find it better for Black to continue it's venture with 8...Qd8!? threatening discovered check or Bb4+ winning the Queen. I hope someone can help me validate this idea and hereby thank you all in advance:)
Back to the other aspects of the story, <Andrew Chapman> has pointed out many strong possibilities for White. 12.Qxc7+!? Nd7!? Black has to defend the c5 Bishop. 12...Nd7!? also served the purpose of connecting it's backrank Rooks. The position is extremely complicated. Both sides need to attack and defend at the same time. In fact I saw 13.Nc3! as one of the best choices for White, defending the e2 pawn while threatening Nd5+ and Bg5+ winning the Queen. Thus Black needs to move the Queen out of the way. 13...Qf5+!? and I think the game really explodes with 14.e4! and White seems to win in my humble opinion.
Perhaps 10...Qxf1 was wrong. If so, I think the only good alternative is 10...Qxe5. In material terms, Black is down a Bishop for 2 pawns. But positionally it is hard to say. The e5 Queen is well placed. It keeps an eye on the h2 Rook while guarding the c7 square. It also poses threatening checks around the exposed White King. I think it's a more promising game for Black.
Comments & Criticisms are greatly appreciated. Thanks:)
|Feb-25-05|| ||ongyj: Please ignore my previous post. I realised that this outrageous sacrifice only succeeded due to Whites inaccuracies. Now I'll be glad to have someone to guide me on how to play for Black in the position after 5.Nh3... Thanks. |
|Feb-25-05|| ||Seraphina: <ongyi> I will have a look at your ideas in the next week. I happen to be a fan of the Budapest, esp. in fast games. If the KP doesn't get opened soon, it can begin to look pretty dingy for the white side anyway. So I think, yes, e3 (instead of f4) would have been a nice idea. Also protecting against the KB posted at c4 (the f2 pawn is a favorite target in the BD. |
There are myriad traps in the opening. In fact, I have long believed that it was named after it's Hungarian character (my father was Hungarian) in addition to whatever game it was in Budapest that started the whole thing... That knight dashing off to g4 (or e4), the great potential sacrifices, etc... (Hungary has one of the world's highest rates of suicide, whereby I would count their driving as suicide as well. It's a country that honors its defeats more than any other, Mohács, Mufi, the 1956 Rebolution... And yet incredibly positive, resourceful bunch, my fav0orite country... SO i occasionally use the Budapest...)
|Feb-25-05|| ||RisingChamp: It is called the Budapsest,because the system and theory was worked out in Budapest by many Hungarian masters,and many Hungarians played and tested this opening out,not simply because the first notable game was played there(as in the case of the Berlin or Carlsbad variations for example).<ongyj>I will get back to you soon,but black is clearly better after Nh3 without need to recourse to the dubious sacrifice Nxh2?!.Certainly as a Budapest player the 4 f4 variation is one of the ideas i would simply love to face.Similar greedy ideas like 4 QD5 and Qd4 are also fun to face.Though Qd4 isnt such a bad move. |
|Feb-26-05|| ||Seraphina: Ruising Champ, that was tongue (nyelv orcában, hehehe) in cheek, but thanks for the info. And indeed, Nh3 (Knight on the rim is dim) is rather uninspired... |
|Feb-26-05|| ||RisingChamp: Well actually there ARE surprisingly enough,some lines where the bizzare looking 5 Nh3 is good,a nice example I think being the line 4 e3!(the exclamation mark being for the trap-most black players forget the attack on the knight,this happens quite often to experienced Budapest players like me in blitz,and very occasionally in tournaments as well)Nxe5! 5 Nh3 with ideas like Nf4 and building a pawn centre,it is quite interesting. |
|Feb-26-05|| ||ongyj: I'm really grateful to you guys, <Seraphina> and <RisingChamp> for even bothering to try to clear my doubts. Now I no longer consider 5...Nxh2, though I keep the idea in mind. I think Black should maintain the development advantage with 5...Nc6 and when White attacks the g4 Knight with e4, play d6 and gambit even more pawns for more moves such as ...0-0 and eventually moves the Rook into the centre. Comments, anyone? |
|Mar-01-05|| ||Seraphina: <Rising Champ> Budapest and Blitz go well together.... Ongyi, I think with any opening like the BG, you have to keep a very open mind. Unless you see some great attack, just develop pieces. The problem with the BG (I find) is the development of the queen bishop for black. There's lots of fireworks at the start, and then one is stuck with a sometimes boring game. In the variation mentioned above by Rising Champ, I feel the best approach is to NOT fall into that trap after e3, get back the pawn on e5, develop the KB to c5 or b4 (the latter will entail an exchange of Bishops if white decides to stop the chek with Bd2... whereby I have tried simply Nc6 with some success) and play d6 as fast as possible. It is a strange opening. One plan can be to try to prevent the white king from castling... The master and psych trainer of the Soviet teams Krogius once said (apparently) better to have a bad plan than no plan at all. If your opponent falls into your bad plan, you win anyway... That applies to all games. |
|Mar-01-05|| ||euripides: <rising champ> New in Chess had a nice article on the 4 e3 and 5 Nh3 line late last year. |
|Apr-16-05|| ||Sirthursday: What about 7...Qg6 ? It seems like black gets quite a big attack after subsequently playing 8...d6 eg. 7...Qg6 8.Rh1 d6 9.exd6 Be3+ 10.Kc2 Bf5+ 11.Kb3 Bxf4+ where black is threatening to trap the white king in the corner with Nc6-d5 and a5-a4. I would say that black has more than enough compensation for his piece- he has two dangerous bishops and a queen developed and his opponent's king within striking distance, whereas as black has next to no development apart from the misplaced knight on h3 and a wide open king. |
Comments/Criticisms? Alternatives for white?
|Mar-15-08|| ||Samagonka: I'm like..what the hell! This game is...|
|Feb-14-10|| ||rich187113: Beautiful!|
|Jan-22-11|| ||tentsewang: What a beauty... :)|
|Nov-15-13|| ||JonDSouzaEva: I believe that the player who lost this game was Helmer Fahlander, i.e. Helmer was his first name.|
|Oct-15-14|| ||Ke2: But for missing 12. Bg5, it's not so badly played by both. The knight sac should be unsound but has great practical chances.|
|Nov-14-14|| ||master of defence: Nice game, I wonder if the 5...Nxh2!? sac is sound at all, i.e, had White missed a chance to win the game with his piece up?|
P.S: Black missed a faster mate with 15...Nd4+ 16.Kc1(16.Kc3 Qxc4#) Qf1+ 17.Be1 Qxe1#.
|Jan-20-17|| ||lost in space: |
click for larger view
8. Qe1 is a bad move:
8...Be3+ 9. Kd1 (other moves loses the queen) Qxd1 10. Kxd1 Bxc1 and Black is more than fine
click for larger view
|Jan-20-17|| ||Stonehenge: You've Been Trumpfed:
W Trumpf vs B Helman, 2007
|Jan-20-17|| ||ChessHigherCat: This page is full of smug comments about how the game is joke and if white hadn't played inaccurately, black would have been crushed, but where's the proof? 8.Qe1 doesn't work, as shown above. What about 8. e3!?: 8...Bxe3+, 9. Ke3 Qg3+ 10. Qf3 Q*h2 11. Nd2 Bxh3 12. gxh3 with white threatening to trap the Q(maybe with Nf3 eventually)|
|Jan-20-17|| ||RandomVisitor: 12.Bg5+ is winning for white.|
|Jul-03-17|| ||newzild: I fell for this line in one of my first-ever tournament games.|
It was a most unpleasant experience.
|Apr-04-18|| ||whiteshark: <RandomVisitor: 12.Bg5+ is winning for white.>|
click for larger view
White to move
1) +7.13 (23 ply) 12.Bg5+ f6 13.exf6+ gxf6 14.Qxh8 Qf5+ 15.Kd1 Nc6 16.Rxh7+ Ke6 17.Qxa8 Qxh7 18.cxd5+ Kxd5 19.Qxb7 fxg5 20.Nc3+ Kd6 21.Nb5+ Ke5 22.Qxc6 Qh1+ 23.Kc2 Qxa1 24.Qxc5+ Kf4 25.Qf2+ Ke5 26.Nc3 Qh1 27.Qc5+ Ke6 28.Qd5+ Ke7 29.Qxg5+ Kd7 30.Qf5+ Kd8 31.Nd5 Qe1 32.Qe5
1.0 minute analysis by Stockfish 9 v010218
= = =
Yet another myth busted!
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