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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Aug-15-10
 | | Willber G: How about:
18.e5 Bxg2
19.gxf6 Bb7
20.Bg5
keeping the pressure on the black bishop and queen without allowing black to block with f6, and threatening Rh3 and Qh4 |
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| Aug-15-10 | | agb2002: White is a pawn down.
Black threatens ... b4 and ... fxg5.
The bishop on b7 is defenseless and that one on e7 can't move. Some white pieces aim at the black king (Q, KR, QB) through the g-file and the dark squares. These details suggest 18.e5: A) 18... Bxg2 19.gxf6
A.1) 19... Ba8(b7,c6) 20.Bh6
A.1.a) 20... Rg8 21.Rxg8+ Qxg8 (21... Kxg8 22.Qg3+ Kh8 23.Qg7#) 22.Bg7+ Qxg7 23.fxg7+ + - [Q vs 2B]. A.1.b) 20... Bxf6 21.exf6
A.1.b.i) 21... Rg8 22.Rxg8+ as in A.1.a.
A.1.b.ii) 21... Re8 22.Bg7+ Kg8 23.Bf8+ Kxf8 (23... Kh8 24.Rg8+ Kxg8 25.Qg3+ and mate next) 24.Rg8+ Kxg8 25.Qg3+ and mate next. A.1.b.iii) 21... Qxf6 22.Qxf6+ (22.Bg7+ Qxg7 23.Rxg7 Kxg7 looks unclear) Nxf6 23.Bg7+ Kg8 24.Bxf6#. A.1.b.iv) 21... Nxf6 22.Bg7+ Kg8 23.Bxf6#.
A.1.c) 20... Nxe5 21.Bg7+ Kg8 22.fxe7 Qxe7 23.Bf6#.
A.2) 19... Bxf6 20.exf6 Ba8(b7,c6) 21.Bh6 transposes to A.1.b. A.3) 19... Nxf6 20.exf6
A.3.a) 20... Bxf6 21.Qxg2 + - [B vs 2P].
A.3.b) 20... Ba8(b7,c6) 21.fxe7 Qxe7 22.Bh6 Rg8 23.0-0-0 + - [B vs 2P]. A.4) 19... Rg8 20.fxe7 Qxe7 21.Qxg7 + - [B vs 2P].
B) 18... d5 19.gxf6 Bc5 20.Qe2
B.1) 20... Rg8 21.Rh3
B.1.a) 21... d4 22.Rxh7+ Kxh7 23.Qh5#.
B.1.b) 21... Nxe5 22.Qh5 Rg7 23.fxg7+ Kxg7 24.Bh6+ wins. B.1.c) 21... Nf8 22.Bh6
B.1.c.i) 22... b4 23.Bxf8 Qxf8 (23... bxc3 24.Rxh7+ Kxh7 25.Qh5#; 23... Rxf8 24.Rxh7+ Kxh7 25.Qh5+ Kg8 26.Qg5+ Kh8 27.Qg7#) 24.Qh5 + -. B.1.c.ii) 22... Rg6 23.Qh5 Kg8 (23... Rxg2 24.Bxf8 Rg1+ 25.Kd2 Rg2+ 26.Kc1 Kg8 27.Bg7 + -) 24.Bf1 followed by Bd3 with an apparently winning attack. B.2) 20... b4 21.Bh6
B.2.a) 21... bxc3 22.Qg4 Rg8 23.Bg7+ Rxg7 24.Qxg7#.
B.2.b) 21... Rg8 22.Rxg8+ is similar to A.1.a.
B.2.c) 21... Re8 22.Qg4 (or 22.Bg7+ as in A.1.b.ii) and mate soon. C) 18... Qc7 19.gxf6 Bd8 20.Bh6 + -.
Other options, like 18.g6, 18.Nxb5, 18.Rh3, etc. don't look so strong. |
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Aug-15-10
 | | scormus: Is it my imagination, or isit that the more difficult the puzzle, the fewer the kibitzen? Of could it be everyone is busy on Sunday. <agb2002> a rich analysis.
I like your line
B.1 18 e5 d5 19 gxf6 Bc5 20 Qe2 Rg8 21 Rh3
Any thoughts on B.1.d
21 ... Rg6 ? |
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| Aug-15-10 | | rapidcitychess: <JImfromProvidence:<I'm stuck.> One of the few puzzles in which I'm stuck too.(Of course that's not really a suprise.) I can't see anything concrete. <chessgames.com> What is the solution? |
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Aug-15-10
| | scormus: <rcc ..... CG> good question! One I would like to have answered every weekend. I have to revise my first judgement, W's position wasnt too bad. My 18 Nd5 seems to fall short, but which is better gxf6 or e5? And does B have a refutation to either? I know that CG dont just grab a game position at random and put it up as a puzzle, they run potential cases through their Si and have a pretty good idea whats going on before they pose (it). So <CG> how about saving us all a sleepless night |
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| Aug-15-10 | | kramputz: Confusing problem |
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| Aug-15-10 | | randomsac: 46 Nxd5 was really cute. Quite a nifty combination to pick off black's rook. |
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| Aug-15-10 | | agb2002: <scormus: Is it my imagination, or isit that the more difficult the puzzle, the fewer the kibitzen? Of could it be everyone is busy on Sunday. <agb2002> a rich analysis. I like your line B.1 18 e5 d5 19 gxf6 Bc5 20 Qe2 Rg8 21 Rh3
Any thoughts on B.1.d 21 ... Rg6 ? >
I don't know. I probably would try a plan based on Qh5, Bh6, Bf1, Bd3, 0-0-0 in the appropriate order. |
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| Aug-15-10 | | Patriot: For me there were only 2 main candidates to consider after looking at other ideas briefly: gxf6 and e5. 18.e5 seemed to be the move that limited black's options the most, since now the b7-bishop is hanging. So 18...Bxg2 is likely black's only move. Generally it's good to play into a winning line where your opponent has fewer options. But this doesn't mean it is best! So now, 19.gxf6 is likely best since that opens the g-file plus the diagonal for the d2-bishop. Now after 19...Bb7 20.fxe7 will at least win the piece back and black's position looks shaky. 18.gxf6 leaves black a few choices, namely 18...Bxf6 and 18...Nxf6. 18...Bxf6 seems to give more options. (Not to mention that 18...Nxf6 19.e5 Bxg2 20.exf6 Bxf6 21.Qxg2 drops a piece for black.) 19.e5 Bxe5 (why not?) 20.Bxb7 Bxg3 21.hxg3 looks bad for black. After examining both variations, I thought 18.gxf6 looked best. --------
As to the question of how much should you analyze before "solving" the puzzle, everyone probably has a different answer. <Life Master AJ> thought it was sufficient to see the winning idea, 18.gxf6 followed by 19.e5 since that's all he posted on that line, but most likely worked out much more. A beginner might simply decide 18.gxf6 (because you should capture back!) and get the first move of the puzzle and not have a clue to follow it up with 19.e5. <agb2002> did not consider 18.gxf6 and wrote exhaustive analysis on 18.e5, showing amazing board vision, and proving that 18.e5 is winning. I'm sure that some kibitzers probably feel that my analysis is generally shallow and doesn't really count as "solved". Fair enough. My opinion is that you only need to analyze until you've proven a move is best. Personally I don't think it's necessary to analyze most puzzles extremely deep or thoroughly because usually there is only one key move in question where everything else is equal or lost. But mostly, if you play tournament chess you have to learn to be practical. Knowing when to analyze and when to stop is key to becoming a better player. Yesterday's puzzle was a good example of the necessity to analyze to a given depth. I didn't post anything, but calculated all the way to a win in several critical lines. This was necessary because as my coach always says, "Never trade into a losing king and pawn endgame!" |
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| Aug-15-10 | | ZUGZWANG67: Black is a pawn up. But White has compensation (and anyway he could equalize materially if he wished): he has an attack on the K-side. Moreover he has a potentially interesting device on a8/h1: the Bb7 is not defended and if the WB captures it the the Rc8 is threatened next. These factors should (probably) be displayed in conjunction with the cramped position of the mass around the Be7. I considered 18.Rh3, 18.gxf6, Nxb5 (and tried to eliminate the defense of the d6-pawn), 18.0-0-0 but finally turned to 18.e5 directly. I discovered that 18.e5 forces the win of a piece. That is W
would open up the K-side for his pieces using the 19.gxe5 device. Thus, 18...fxg5 19.Bxb7 Rb8 20.Be4. There's also the 18...Bxg2 19.gxf6 Rg8 20.fxe7 Qxe7 21.Qxg2, again gaining material. But if Black refuses to give in and go for 18...Bxg2 then 19.gxf6 Bb7 20.Bg5!! I think this is the move. I spent a long time considering 20.Bh6, when 20...Rg8 happens, and 20.Rh3. With 20.Rh3 all I could get was a big threat against h7 (in the event of Qh4). But in any line I've studied B succeeds in either posting and holding a B at f6 (preventing Qh4) or playing the N at either f6 or f8 while avoiding a disadvantageous exchange. With 20.Bg5 W sets up the threat fxe7, forking, thus delaying the arrival of the right defensive pieces. Also, by not committing the B W remains flexible in the sens that the B could either go to f6 or h6, where Pillsbury could be threatened (from f6(+) it would not be attacked by the K, while at h6 it would be in a position to exchange an eventual N acting against a Rh3/Qh4 battery) What is B to play? Surely not 20...Rg8 because 21.fxe7 Qe8 22.Bf6+ Nxf6 23.Qxf6+ mates. It remains the one of the two giving-back-material at f6 but: a) 20...Nxf6 21.exf6 and either the B falls or W takes time to develop something by means of Rh3 and Qh4 (the disapearance of the BN eases things). b) 20...Bxf6 21.exf6 (the B is needed to go to h6 and has a special duty at g5: in some lines it prevents ...Rg1+) 21...Rg8 (so that Rh3 is responded by ...Nf8) 22.Bh6! (stronger, I think, than 22.Rh3 Nf8 23.Qh4, when in case of 24.Bh6 B has 24...Rg1+; it's important to deny B of any counter-chances) 22...Rxg3 23.Qxf3 Qg8 (what else?) 24.Bg7+ and mate soon. It took me an eternity to find this (I'm not moving the pieces). Hopefully it is close to reality. Time to check.
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| Aug-15-10 | | ZUGZWANG67: OK. It seems that it's not exactly it. I'm hungry. I go restore myself with new metabolic fuel and I'll see what's happened later. Peace! |
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Aug-15-10
 | | chrisowen: Abided 6.Rg1 covent Keres investigated. I remember the pawn front d5 e5 is good recompense that. Like R Fontaine vs E Relange 1998 Clichy still waters run deep and a side storm is greatly met from a central break. Was it Tartakower myth also? B5 Grimm poll and dutiful temps get flanking out black. Kh8 is the prince finger in the pie f6 e5 edit hold the piece up white is cruising. <rapidcitychess><scormus><Jimfromprovidence> road isn't pedestrian'd one for sure it holds. Castles Qc7 her majesty the medley here comes the sun Qd4 Ne5..."the great master places a knight at e5; mate follows by itself". With the shoe on the other foot delve in a game I played with Fritz delaying in calm sacrifice. [Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "New game"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "63"]
1. e4 c5 2. h3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d3 Nc6 5. g4 g6 6. Bg2 Bg7 7. f4 O-O 8. Nf3 Qa5
9. O-O c4 10. d4 Rd8 11. Qe2 Qb6 12. Kh1 d5 13. e5 Ne8 14. Na4 Qb5 15. b3 Nc7
16. Be3 b6 17. Nc3 Qa5 18. Qd2 b5 19. Ne1 b4 20. Na4 Ba6 21. Nc5 c3 22. Qf2
Bxf1 23. Bxf1 Rab8 24. Bd3 e6 25. Nf3 Bh6 26. Qh4 Bg7 27. f5 Re8 28. fxg6 fxg6
29. Bxg6 hxg6 30. Ng5 Bh6 31. Qxh6 Re7 32. Rf1 * |
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| Aug-15-10 | | RandomVisitor: After 18.gxf6:
click for larger view Rybka 3:
<[+0.71] d=22 18...Bxf6> 19.e5 Bxe5 20.Bxb7 <Bxg3> 21.hxg3 Rc5 22.Bh6 Rf5 23.Qd4+ Re5+ 24.Be4 f5 25.Qxd6 Qf6 26.Bxf8 Nxf8 27.0-0-0 fxe4 28.Qd4 Rf5 29.Qxf6+ Rxf6 30.Nxe4 Rf3 31.Kd2 Kg7 32.Ke2 Rf5 33.Ke3 |
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| Aug-15-10 | | ZUGZWANG67: 18.gxf6 was simpler. |
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| Aug-15-10 | | David2009: Well, in my first post R Lutzenberger vs K F Grimm, 1999 I got the first move wrong. 18 e5! is correct. Setting the position up on Crafty End Game Trainer, I found a win by trial and error (plenty of the latter). Starting Crafty link http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... The first few moves are as already given in the very thorough analysis by <larkio>: 18.e5!! Bxg2 19.gxf6 Nxf6 20.exf6 Bxf6 21.Bh6 Rg8 22.Rxg8+ Kxg8 23.Qxg2+ Kh8 (so far <larkio>'s analysis: I concentrate on the defence played by Crafty; <larkio> refutes alternatives) 
click for larger view It remains to win this position) 24.Qd2 (24.0-0-0 is premature: 24...Bxc3 25.bxc3 Qf6! is very strong) Rc4 25.0-0-0 (Crafty EGT does not permit this move so one starts over setting the position up afresh) Rd4 Further Crafty link http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
click for larger view
26.Qf2 (I first tried Qd3 but found my h2 Pawn vulnerable so tried this less forcing line) Bg5+ (this unexpected simplification by Crafty came as a great relief) 27.Bxg5 Qxg5+ 28.Kb1 Rxd1+ 29.Nxd1 Kg8 (better and better: now I can exchange Queens) 30.Qg3 Qxg3 31.hxg3 Kf8 
click for larger view The position has clarified and the win is now straightforward. Crafty link to this position
http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
32.b4 axb4 33.axb4 Ke7 34.Nc3 h5 35.Kc1 f5 36.Kd2 e5 37.Nxb5 Kd7 38.c4 f4 39.gxf4 exf4 40.Ke2 h4 41.Kf3 d5 42.cxd5 h3 43.Nc3 Kd6 44.b5 Kc5 45.Kf2 Kd6 46.b6 Kd7 and we reach
click for larger view
A Monday problem with a difference: White to play and lose.
Up to here I was feeling very pleased with myself (I had found the winning line from 26. Qf2 first time), now I found a plausible way to lose. Can you do as badly? |
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| Aug-15-10 | | wals: Analysis by Rybka 3 1-cpu:
1.  (0.78): 18.e5 Bxg2 19.gxf6[] Nxf6 20.exf6[] Bxf6 21.Qxg2 b4 22.axb4 axb4 23.Ne4 Bh4 24.Bxb4 Bxg3+ 25.Qxg3 Rg8 26.Qf2 Rxc2 27.Qxc2 Qh4+ 28.Ng3[] Qxb4+[] 29.Qc3+ Qxc3+[] 30.bxc3 Rg4 31.Rd1 Rc4 32.Ne2 d5 33.Rd4 2.  (0.62): 18.gxf6 Bxf6[] 19.e5 Bxe5 20.Bxb7 Rc7 |
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| Aug-15-10 | | rapidcitychess: Ridiculous puzzle. I mean, most of us are still not sure if we solved it. |
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| Aug-15-10 | | ZUGZWANG67: <<rapidcitychess>: Ridiculous puzzle. I mean, most of us are still not sure if we solved it.> I have a theory on it. The harder the puzzle, the less likely that a clear solution is to be found. Peace! |
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| Aug-15-10 | | ZUGZWANG67: <<David2009>: Well, in my first post R Lutzenberger vs K F Grimm, 1999 I got the first move wrong. 18 e5! is correct. Setting the position up on Crafty End Game Trainer, I found a win by trial and error (plenty of the latter). Starting Crafty link http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
The first few moves are as already given in the very thorough analysis by <larkio>: 18.e5!! Bxg2 19.gxf6 Nxf6 20.exf6 Bxf6 21.Bh6 Rg8 22.Rxg8+ Kxg8 23.Qxg2+ Kh8 (so far <larkio>'s analysis: I concentrate on the defence played by Crafty; <larkio> refutes alternatives)> I'm still not sure that 19.gxf6 is still the best move, though. In my own analysis (not a computer one; see my post), I had 19.Bg5 as being very strong and somewhat, more flexible. |
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Aug-15-10
| | Willber G: <Willber G: How about:
18.e5 Bxg2
19.gxf6 Bb7
20.Bg5
keeping the pressure on the black bishop and queen without allowing black to block with f6, and threatening Rh3 and Qh4> Hi Will, I think that your analysis, while brief, is correct and irrefutable. Well done! |
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| Aug-15-10 | | RandomVisitor: <wals>If you have the time, it might be even more useful to chessgames members if you post the <total time> that Rybka ran for your posted analysis, or the <search depth> that Rybka reached. If this is an inconvenience, your posted analysis is still quite useful and please continue posting. |
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| Aug-15-10 | | muralman: I chose g5 to g6. I think that might put black into a worrisome quandary. It would also allow a fearsome attack by white with bishops queen and rook. |
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| Aug-15-10 | | M.Hassan: "insane" White to play and is a pawn up
I have gone through 3 different lines that the game may have continued.
1. Line A:
18.e5 Bxg2
19.exf6 Bxf6
20.gxf6 Bb7
21.Bh6 Rg8
22.Rxg8 Qxg8
23.Bg7+ Qxg7
24.fxg7+ Kxg7
And I assume W wins since Black's Queen is lost
Line B:
18.e5 Bxg2
19.gxf6 Nxe5
20.fxe7 Qxe7
21.Rxg2 b4
22.axb4 axb4
23.Ra7 Rc7
24.Rxc7 Qxc7
25.Qf6# but I think this line is unlikely
Line C:
18.e5 fxg5
19.Bxb7 Rb8
20.Be4 dxe5
21.Rh3 Nf6
22.Bd3
And I think in this position the game continues much longer with the potential chance for White to win
Check see what has happened!!
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| Aug-15-10 | | yrotciv: If 18. e5 Bxg2 19. gxf6 Ba8 20. Bg5 Bxf6 21. exf6 Rg8 (One possible continuation is 22. Qf4 Rg6 leading to Nxf6) If 18. e5 Bxg2 19. gxf6 Ba8 20. Bg5 Bxf6 21. Bxf6+ Nxf6 - Then its neutral after either 22. Qxf6 Qxf6 exf6 or 22. exf6 Basically I don't think the threats on the h file have time to materialize ... |
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Aug-16-10
| | Willber G: <yrotciv: If 18. e5 Bxg2 19. gxf6 Ba8 20. Bg5 Bxf6 21. exf6 Rg8 (One possible continuation is 22. Qf4 Rg6 leading to Nxf6) If 18. e5 Bxg2 19. gxf6 Ba8 20. Bg5 Bxf6 21. Bxf6+ Nxf6 - Then its neutral after either 22. Qxf6 Qxf6 exf6 or 22. exf6 Basically I don't think the threats on the h file have time to materialize ...> Doh! |
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Kibitzing
sac: 46.Nxd5
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