< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|May-28-06|| ||dakgootje: Why not 21. Nxa8? Okay, black does have a attack, but i think it is far from winning. E.g. 21. Nxa8 gxf3 22. Bxf3 Nh4 23. Kh1 and i dont see how black can continue|
|May-28-06|| ||youngplayer11: Is it possible to play 39...Nf5 right away? Thats what I had and I think it wins too. Please correct me if I'm wrong.|
|May-28-06|| ||euripides: <dak> White often does best to take the rook rather than the bishop in this variation if there's just the exchange at stake, because the bishop plays a key role in Black's attack. However, here it's a whole rook, so I imagine there's some concrete tactical reason. I guess the critical idea for Black will be g3 followed by Bh3, but I haven't worked it out :-).|
|May-28-06|| ||jajaja: what does 34..kh8 serve?|
|May-28-06|| ||dakgootje: <euripides: so I imagine there's some concrete tactical reason.> Or both just oversaw black didnt have an attack ;-)|
not sure if i interpretate your words correctly but i think you mean 21. Nxh8 g3? In that case 22. h3 and black cant break whites defence because of all the pawns which arent easily traded off. Cant sac the bishop at h3 either (22. ...Bxh3) because of 23. gxh3 followed by Kg2. Only little thing that might be annoying is 23. ...g2, but i think that doesnt work either because of 24. Rf2 Nh4. and it doesnt seem white can really immediately win the pawn at g2 nor can black promote it, though black hasnt got a mate threat or something either, but white has huge material advantages
|May-28-06|| ||dakgootje: <jajaja> didnt understand that move either, as black really seems to have some pressure on whites king (finally), and then he plays about the most defensive (if serving any purpose) move possible. So there is either no idea after it, or its brilliant, or the idea wasnt neccesary or something else which i didnt think of yet.|
|May-28-06|| ||euripides: <dak> 22 Nxa8 g3 23 h3 Bxh3 24 gxh3> g2+ (note the check). Then 24 Kg1 gxf1=Q++ 25 Kxf1 Qg2+ 26 Ke1 Nxf3+ seems to give Black quite a bit of play for the piece, though I'm not sure if it's enough. On reflection 22...Nxg2 also looks dangerous. |
White may well also have assessed 22 Nxc8 as very good for him.
|May-28-06|| ||dakgootje: <euripides> Main problem with our analysis is that i was analysing with Nxa8 at move 21 and you at move 22|
After 22. Nxa8 g3 i wouldnt play h3, maybe something to either defend the knight at a8 or retreat it to b6 again, as i dont think blacks threats are dangerous enough for winning the game (gxh2 and Rf2 follows protecting the g2-pawn)
|May-28-06|| ||LIFE Master AJ: A good one. (I got the first move, but missed the follow-up.)|
|May-28-06|| ||euripides: <dak> sorry I had got the move number wrong. After <21 Nxa8 g3 22 Nb6> a thematic possibility is 22...Bh3, threatening gxh2+ and Qg2 mate. Then e.g. 23 Rf2 gxf2+ or 23 gxh3 Nh4 or 23 hxg3 Qxg3 24 Rf2 h2+. If <21 Nxa8 g3 22 h3> Qh4 looks dangerous.|
|May-28-06|| ||euripides: ...similarly after <22 Nxa8 g3 23 Nb6> Bh3 and Nxg2 are both worth looking at.|
|May-28-06|| ||euripides: Golubev has posted a link on his page to http://mikhail_golubev.livejournal....
That link includes a discussion of the line with <22 Nxa8 g3 23 Nb6 Nxg2>.|
|May-28-06|| ||An Englishman: Good Morning: The entire game is amazing--I doubt that many people here would have seen 20...Qg5. I'm also a little amazed White didn't take the Rook: if there's a forced win after 21.Nxa8 then White is one heck of a defender, regardless of the game's result.|
|May-28-06|| ||dakgootje: okay, i think, as Golubev already analysed that particular line, we can conclude that 22. Nxa8 is quite unclear, maybe a slight advantage for one of them, but above all unclear.|
so i think there is no really need for us to analyse it much further, as it seems while skipping through the article that both Golubev and Fritz ran through those moves, so the chances for finding something new is extremely small.
Next in line is the 21. Nxa8 g3. I think here your analysis is a bit... strange as in this part: <threatening gxh2+ and Qg2 mate> there is no mate because of the lack of defence for the black queen on g2 (in the game the knight only moved to h4 at move 21).
After 21. Nxa8 g3 22. Nb6 there follows 22. ...Qh4, threatening mate, so 23. h3. Now of course ...Bxh3 is stronger, followed by 24. gxh3 Qxh3 and the only way to stop mate is Rf2. Probably followed by gxf2, but im not sure about that. so i guess here Nb6 loses too much time for the defence.
So maybe 21. Nxa8 g3 22. h3 is best. You suggested Qh4, and i think that is quite dangerous indeed. Of course the sac of the bishop on h3 is dangerous, very dangerous, after which the same mate threats as earlier in my post arise, after which there Rf2 was needed. Luckily we now know better and can prepare a defence on the 2nd rank without losing time with Nb6. So what we need is getting the bishop of the 2nd rank and the g-pawn will go of also because of it has to take the black bishop on h3. Dont know yet whether it will matter much where the bishop goes, but i think its good on c4, in line with the black king, if the situation might occur the diagonal goes open, and not in the room for a possible escape by whites king. So i think we get so far: <21. Nxa8 g3 22. h3 Qh4 23. Bc4 Bxh3 24. gxh3 Qxh3>
(probably continues, but please analyse and post corrections of this analysis if it is not correct)
|May-28-06|| ||dakgootje: To continue with <21. Nxa8 g3 22. h3 Qh4 23. Bc4 Bxh3 24. gxh3 Qxh3>, for the sake of trying to exclude too much confusion a little diagram:|
click for larger view
Okay, its white to play (lucky for white else it was mated directly). What indeed still has to be noticed is the mate threat. Therefor we already played Bc4 so we can now play <Rb2> or <Qb2>. I dont think whether it is going to make differance which one we take, but in the case of defending and maybe being forced to give back material i would chose the Rb2, seems more safe. At the moment black is way behind in material, so it has to attack, attack and...attack. the rook, bishop and e8-knight cant do very much yet, so we use the knight on g6. 25. Nh4, making some nice threats (about all including g2), so white still has to defend. There arent many ways to defend for white as most of the pieced arent capable of doing anything for the moment. I think best is to accept g2 and accept the we cant help either that the rook on f1 is doomed. Only thing we can do is letting nice rook know that he doesnt die for no reason at all, as we get that bloody pawn right after the rook. so only was to do that properly is 26. Nb1 g2 27. Nd2 gxf1Q 28. Nxf1.
click for larger view
here white is up a bishop for a pawn, but i dont know whether black doesnt have enough compensation for that material disadvantage. Think the best thing about this is, that it is quite unclear who is better. Black doesnt have much of an attack either so maybe is white better. Maybe black can still pull off a nice attack and then is black better... I dont know
|May-28-06|| ||euripides: <Next in line is the 21. Nxa8 g3. I think here your analysis is a bit... strange as in this part: <threatening gxh2+ and Qg2 mate> there is no mate because of the lack of defence for the black queen on g2 (in the game the knight only moved to h4 at move 21).>|
I think this refers to my suggestion <After <21 Nxa8 g3 22 Nb6> a thematic possibility is 22...Bh3, threatening gxh2+ and Qg2 mate. > In this line g2 is protected by the bishop; that's the point of 22...Bh3. It looks winning to me; in any case it's a very typical possibility in this kind of KID.
|May-28-06|| ||RandomVisitor: After 39...Rg3:
28 -2.57 40.Rh1 Nxf3+ 41.Qxf3 Rxf3 42.gxf3 Ng5 43.Bd1 Qc7 44.Kg2 Kg7 45.Rg1 Kf7 46.Rf1 Qc1
27 -3.19 40.Rf1 Rxg2+ 41.Qxg2 Nxg2 42.Kxg2 Qg7+ 43.Kh1 Ng5 44.Kh2 h4 45.Bb3 Bxb6 46.axb6 Qd7
27 -4.06 40.Bxg3 Nf5 41.Bf2 Ng3 42.Bd7 Nxe2 43.Re1 Nd4 44.Ba4 Qc7 45.Ra1 Qc5 46.Ra2 Bxb6
|May-28-06|| ||dakgootje: <I think this refers to my suggestion <After <21 Nxa8 g3 22 Nb6> a thematic possibility is 22...Bh3, threatening gxh2+ and Qg2 mate. > In this line g2 is protected by the bishop; that's the point of 22...Bh3. It looks winning to me; in any case it's a very typical possibility in this kind of KID> Ahhh okay, but i think we then can agree that 21 Nxa8 g3 22 Nb6 is no good for white and at least makes it an uncertain position? I analysed that part a little 2 posts before this one: <After 21. Nxa8 g3 22. Nb6 there follows 22. ...Qh4, threatening mate, so 23. h3. Now of course ...Bxh3 is stronger, followed by 24. gxh3 Qxh3 and the only way to stop mate is Rf2. Probably followed by gxf2, but im not sure about that. so i guess here Nb6 loses too much time for the defence.>|
So i let Bh3 wait for a move, by first moving Qh3 making the threat more forcing.
|May-28-06|| ||Alex S.: I have to ask, though.
After 40...Nf5, why doesn't white retreat the bishop to f2 or e1, maintaining control of of the h4 square and now a rook up?
|May-28-06|| ||euripides: <dak> yes, I agree <21 Nxa8 g3> 22h3 is better than 22 Nb6. In your subsequent line Black might try 28...Rf6 planning Rg6-g2 and Nxf3+. It's not clear but I guess Black is probably not worse.|
|May-28-06|| ||jackmandoo: For some reason this puzzle today is way over my head.|
|May-28-06|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Here is the position ... with Black to play and make his thirty-ninth move. (Problem of the day, Sunday / May 28th, 2006.) |
click for larger view
A truly amazing move ... and it does not mean diddley if you don't find the follow-up.
This rejoinder is stunning ... GM Keene stated he might not have found it in a tournament game. (To be honest, I missed it completely.) The whole idea is based on the fact that White can never capture on g3 (with the King) as ...Qh4 mate is the refutation. (A simple epaullette mate.)
Now White must give himself an esacpe square ... as a mate is threatened on h4.
41.♖c1 fxg3+; 42.♔g1 ♕h4!;
The Knight is left hanging ... for one more move.
Once more, White must give his King an escape square.
<[Worse is 43.exf5?? Qh2+; 44.Kf1 Qh1#]>
43...♕h2+ 44.♔f1 ♕h1+ 45.♔e2 ♕xg2+; ( , White Resigns.)
<[If you need to see the win ... 45...Qxg2+ 46.Kd3 <(46.Kd1? Ne3+ 47.Ke1 Qf2#)> 46...Qxf3+ 47.Kc4 Qxe4+ 48.Kc3, <(But not: 48.Kb3?? Nd4+; forking King and Queen.)> 48...Nf6 49.Bc2 Qd4+ 50.Kb3 Qd2 51.Kb2, <(Worse is: 51.Rf1?? Nd4+; etc.)> 51...g2 52.Qd3 Qxc1+ 53.Kxc1 g1Q+ 54.Kb2 Bxb6 55.Qxf5 Qd4+ 56.Kc1 Qa1+ 57.Bb1 Be3+ 58.Kd1 Qd4+; and Black wins.]>
(I had my doubts about this one ...
so I subjected the final part to an intensive computer analysis. I apologize if I covered the same ground as anyone else.)
|May-29-06|| ||kevin86: Black throws\two pieces into the meat grinder. Instead,they act as a rib spreader to open the white position.|
Neat position of the shadow-y bishops at e1 and d8-guarding some of the same squares.
|Jun-02-06|| ||LIFE Master AJ: <kevin86> Agreed. (Nice comment.)|
|Nov-12-13|| ||MikhailGolubev: annotated in Chess Informant,
later - in the book "Understanding the King's Indian" (2006)
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