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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
Oct-27-09
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| laskersteinitz: "It was preparation all the way through...It's Yannick Gozzoli who forced me to work on this a little bit...And it was a good idea...OK, there were a few drawing opportunities...We saw this 3-4 months ago, before Dortmund. We wanted to play this against Carlsen, but then he played a Botvinnik (Bacrot vs Carlsen, 2009)...No, no, I don't think Aronian knew it. When I played f4, his face..." Etienne Bacrot. (http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...) |
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| Oct-28-09 |
| khursh: 1. How Yannick Gozzoli forced Bacrot to work on line? or what Bacrot means by saying "forced" ? 2. My engines don't have any clue out of this sacrifice, so I may assume this was pure human made preparation. |
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| Oct-28-09 |
| TylerD: if it s true that is was all prep - then I lose interest in the game in question. Knowing it s all prep makes the whole thing somewhat dull... In appearance this game seemed such a beautiful creation - but chess where there is no adrenalin, sweat, anguish, in short: where there is nog real fight - it is just very very uninteresting. |
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Oct-28-09
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| laskersteinitz: I guess by "forced" he meant "urged". |
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Oct-28-09
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| laskersteinitz: <TylerD: if it s true that is was all prep - then I lose interest in the game in question.> I'm not sure I agree with your perspective. There should be reward in chess for hard work, and here Bacrot was rewarded for his hard work. However, I do agree that skill should be more heavily rewarded than preparation in chess. That is why I prefer slow time controls. |
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| Oct-28-09 |
| khursh: <laskersteinitz:> Thanks |
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Oct-29-09
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| Eyal: <The Frenchman made the Anti-Moscow look like a King’s Gambit with Adolf Anderssen behind the white pieces.> (Chessvibes) <khursh: My engines don't have any clue out of this sacrifice, so I may assume this was pure human made preparation.> The engines may have trouble picking f4 (which was Bacrot's novelty, as already mentioned) in the first place, but even so once you get the idea and "force feed" it they can certainly help a lot to assess it. According to the engines, 17.f4 may not even be such a great move objectively provided Black defends completely accurately - but of course, from a practical point of view it's very good in order pose serious problems for an unprepared opponent, as this game testifies. It seems that Aronian's decisive mistake came on move 23 - with <23...Rg7> instead of Kg8? Black can probably hold on by giving back the piece: 24.Qf5 Nf6! 25.Qxf6 Qxf6 26.Rxf6 Rd8. |
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| Oct-29-09 |
| chillowack: Holy frijoles, what a game! Bacrot smacked Aronian around like a red-headed stepchild. I haven't seen these kinds of tactical fireworks at the highest level since the days of Tal. |
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| Oct-29-09 |
| Illogic: <if it s true that is was all prep - then I lose interest in the game in question. Knowing it s all prep makes the whole thing somewhat dull..> You're taking the translation too literally. Definitely the game is not 'all prep' as it's not a forcing win, 17. f4 doesn't even rate all that well on the computer, but Bacrot like it because he felt it would be a difficult position for Black to play. |
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Oct-29-09
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| Eyal: <Definitely the game is not 'all prep' as it's not a forcing win> Assuming Bacrot reached as far as 21...hxg5 in his prep, it's not unlikely that the rest was so as well, especially if he used an engine - at least until move 30, where the win is completely clear. That's because the sequence starting from move 22 is very forcing, beginning with several top engine choices and with very few reasonable alternatives along the way (well, 23...Rg7 instead of 23...Kg8 is of course a very important option... but still it's only 2 ways to defend the rook without giving up defence of h7). It's quite easy to generate the whole sequence of moves 22-30 with an engine in less than a minute. |
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Oct-29-09
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| Eyal: ...Actually, there's also a 3rd way to defend the rook on move 23 - Nf6; but that's refuted immediately by 24.Rxf6! Qxf6 25.Qxh7, since the bishop on e6 is untouchable (25...Qxe6 26.Qh8#). |
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| Oct-29-09 |
| Everett: For those who are diligent and like to work hard in preparation, this game may be enjoyable. I imagine there are just as many who would rather see an interesting position with chances for both sides mixing it up with intuition and acumen on the board, not at home. I am of the latter group. |
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| Oct-29-09 |
| ChessEscudero: why not 16...Bxe5 |
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Oct-29-09
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| Phony Benoni: <ChessEscudero: why not 16...Bxe5>
click for larger view
I think 16...Bxe5 loses material after 17.Bxd7+ and 18.Bxe5, attacking the Rh8 as well as the Pd4 which threatens to capture the knight. |
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| Oct-30-09 |
| paavoh: <TylerD> I beg to differ with your view: "Knowing it s all prep makes the whole thing somewhat dull... In appearance this game seemed such a beautiful creation - but chess where there is no adrenalin, sweat, anguish, in short: where there is nog real fight - it is just very very uninteresting." IMHO, adrenalin, sweat & anguish were involved when Bacrot prepared for this. I'm sure that they were riding high when Aronian faced the prep. And surely, Bacrot was not on cruise control when playing but he needed to verify his calculations. Just my 2 cents on this. |
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Oct-30-09
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| Eyal: I don't know about the sweat, but I'm quite sure there was some anguish here, at least on Aronian's part. |
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| Oct-30-09 |
| znnnk: nice to see Aronian on the receiving end of deep prep for a change |
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Oct-30-09
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| Ulhumbrus: The move 12 Nxd7?! is dubious, because it moves the N a third time to exchange itself for a N on d7 which has been moved but once. As 12...Nxd7 invites 13 Bd6, this suggests 13...Qd7 followed by 14...0-0-0 attacking White's d4 pawn eg 13...Qd7 14 Be5 0-0-0 15 f4 Ne8 16 Bxg7 Nxg7 17 f4! sets Black an unpleasant problem. It reinforces the e5 pawn, defending the e5 pawn with a pawn. However if Black captures the f4 pawn, this opens the f file against an uncastled Black King in the centre. On the other hand, White threatens to open the f file himself by fxg5. Aronian does not manage to find a solution over the board, and if there is none, Black will have to look for alternatives earlier. |
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| Oct-30-09 |
| sheaf: <The move 12 Nxd7?! is dubious, because it moves the N a third time to exchange itself for a N on d7 which has been moved but once.> It appears that you are questioning the main line of Anti-Moscow...;-) <As 12...Nxd7 invites 13 Bd6, this suggests 13...Qd7 followed by 14...0-0-0 attacking White's d4 pawn eg 13...Qd7 14 Be5 0-0-0 15 f4 Ne8 16 Bxg7 Nxg7> I don't understand how can you play 13..Qd7 with the Knight on d7..You probably mean 12.Nxd7 Qxd7 followed by long castle next move attacking whites d pawn..It looks extremely dangerous to me. I wouldn't be surprised if it black gets checkmated in next 10 moves. |
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Oct-31-09
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| Ulhumbrus: <sheaf> <It appears that you are questioning the main line of Anti-Moscow)> Yes, for the reason I have given. < You probably mean 12.Nxd7 Qxd7 > Yes, I do mean 12...Qxd7. As for it being dangerous, Black has advanced his g pawn as well as his b pawn and so has made it dangerous to place his King anywhere. In a way the whole line resembles the Sicilian Najdorf poisoned pawn variation. It looks suicidal, but White has failed repeatedly to get the better of it, although he has won occasionally. Although 12...Qxd7 followed by 13...0-0-0 looks dangerous, Black may have no choice, because after the alternative 13...Nxd7 14 Bd6! he may be lost. |
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| Nov-02-09 |
| Bob726: 12.Nxd7 for black is by far the main move, none of the top super grandmasters have ever played Qxd7 and there must be a reason for that, unless Ulhumbrus is a secret GM we don't know about. |
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Nov-04-09
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| Ulhumbrus: <Bob726: 12.Nxd7 for black is by far the main move, none of the top super grandmasters have ever played Qxd7 and there must be a reason for that, unless Ulhumbrus is a secret GM we don't know about.> I can give you one reason: Bacrot's innovation 17 f4! has not been played before this game. If this move ends up convincing the Grandmasters that Black loses after White's thirteenth move 13 Bd6, they may start trying earlier alternatives such as the move 12...Qxd7 instead of 12...Nxd7. |
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| Nov-07-09 |
| Bob726: f4 is nothing really, just a one-shot, if you anaylaze it with any top computer it is at best white struggling for equality. |
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Nov-10-09
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| Eyal: <12...Nxd7/Qxd7> From Larry Christiansen commentary at ICC on Anand vs Leko, 2009: <Black practically has to play Nxd7, because 12...Qxd7 13.e5 Nd5 14.Ne4 is extreeeeemely unpleasant - those dark squares c5 and d6 are very weak and ripe for exploitation>. |
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| Nov-10-09 |
| 310metaltrader: is this game for real? |
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Later Kibitzing > |
sac: 17.f4
button will automatically play the moves for "hands free" viewing.
