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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 6 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Aug-12-10 | | SuperPatzer77: After 39...Qf4, 40.Re1 Rg5! (much better than 40...Qf3+), 41. Qd1 Qf2, 42. Rg1 (only move) Rxg1+, 43. Qxg1 Qf3+ = so, Black sure can force perpetual check by Qf3+ and Qd1+. SuperPatzer77 |
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| Aug-12-10 | | smitha1: <ZUGZWANG67> After 39...Qf4 40 Re1 Qf3 41 Qg2 Qc3 42 Rg1 g6 43 d5 instead of 43... Rxh2+, 43... Qd5 looks simple and undebatable. Why? The Pawn on c7 is stopped, the Pawn on d5 is in dire straits and the Black Rook is constantly threatening to sac itself on h2. I find working through the variations on Crafty interesting and hugely amusing. |
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Aug-12-10
 | | scormus: OK CG, youre rumbled, youve been having a bit of fun with us, posing a weekend puzzle, and on a thursday as well. Seriously, I didnt get far today. The biggest problem I had was not having the confidence in my initial feeling that B was not winning. Looking for the win my first try was ..... wait for it .... 39 ... Qf4. Yeah, right. Immediaely I realised h2 was adequately defended against any winning B +'s. Then I thought, OK how about 39 ... Qxd4 and try for a won ending. 40 c7 Rc5 and .... oh-oh 41 c8=Q+ wins for W. Nothing else looked So I looked it up and saw 39 ... g6. WHAT!!! Surely thats not winning. No, quite the opposite. OK CG, Ive been had. Rope-a-dope. And I was the dope :( Say wriggle-low, nespar? |
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| Aug-12-10 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: How did we get to the weekend so fast? It doesn't take much study of this position to realize that white's c-pawn is a monster, so black is desperately playing for a draw. A perpetual check seems to be the best chance, but it's not easy and several natural defensive continuations fall short: I. 39... Qxd4?? 40.c7 Rc5 41.c8=Q+ Rxc8 42.Qxc8+ Kf7 43.Qd7+ wins. II. 39... Qf3+? 40.Qg2 Qf6/f7 (Rxh2+ 41.Kxh2 Qf4+ [Qh5+ 42.Kg3 and checks end quickly] 42.Kh3 Qh6+ 43.Kg3 Qg5+ 44.Kf3 and checks can't be sustained) 41.Qxg7+! Kxg7 42.Rxg7+ Kxg7 43.c7 and black is done. III. 39... Rg5?? 40.Rxg5 Qxg5 (Qf3+ 41.Qg2 is easy) 41.c7 wins IV. 39... Rxh2+?? 40.Kxh2 (Qxh2?? Qf3+ draws) Qf4+ (Qh6+ 41.Kg3) 41.Rg3 and the perp vanishes into the night. Pursuing the idea in line IV, I found a complex move that seems to fall short on final analysis: 39... Qf4
Black adds weight to the threat of 40... Rxh2+. Now there are several continuations that end in a draw: A. 40.c7 (or queen moves along the rank) allows Rxh2+ 41.Qxh2 Qf3+ 44.Qg2 Qh5+ 45.Qh2 Qf3+ 46.Rg2 Qd1+ 47.Qg1 Qh5+ =, patterned after a well-known endgame study. B. 40.Q moves off rank??? Q/Rxh2#
C. 40.Rg3?? Qxg3 41.c7 Qf3+ 42.Qg2 Qd1+ 43.Qg1 Qc2 should win for black. D. 40.Rg2 Qf1+ 41.Rg1 Qf4 makes no progress.
E. 40.Rd1?? Qf3+ wins
F. 40.Rc1? Rxh2+ 41.Qxh2 Qxc1+ followed by Qxc6 with advantage to black. G. 40.Rb1 Rxh2+ 41.Qxh2 Qxe4+ 42.Qg2 Qxb1+ 43.Kh2 Qc1 contains the c-pawn. H. 40.Ra1 Rxh2+! 41.Qxh2 Qxe4+ 42.Qg2 Qh4+ 43.Kg1 Qxd4+ 44.Kh2 Qxa1 45.c7 Qe5+ 46.Qg3 Qe2+ looks drawn I. 40.Re1! Ra3! (Rg5 41.Qe2 followed by Rf1 looks strong for white) 41.c7 Qf3+ 42.Qg2 (Kg1 Qg5+ 43.Kh1 Qf3+ =) Qxg2+ 43.Kxg2 Rc3 holds I.1 41.d5 Rf3 42.Kg2 (c7?? Rf1+ forces mate) Qg4+ 43.Kh1 Qf4= I.1.2 43.Qg2! Rf2 44.c7!
Oops - this seems to win. 39... Rh3 40.Qg2 does not look any better. Time to see what happened and read the kibitzers... |
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| Aug-12-10 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: <culei: ... Why don't you read previous posts before making a large post about the game ...> Noone is going to do that - they want to present their own analysis without being influenced by someone else. I'm sure there is plenty of server space. |
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Aug-12-10
 | | Phony Benoni: <ZUGZWANG> It seems unfair to pick a tiny nit in such a wealth of analysis, but in your second diagram, with White to play:
click for larger view
Simply 48.Qxe6+ wins. White can even get cute and play 48.Rxg6+ first. |
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| Aug-12-10 | | ZUGZWANG67: <<Zkid>: Zugzwang67: With my own eyes I'm seeing significant errors in your above analysis.
For example, in your second diagram after 47. Rg2 Qxe4 (d) when you claim white has nothing to do, white wins very obviously with 48. Qxe6+, trading queens and promoting a new one a couple moves later. Not sure. Maybe B should simply take a pawn at this point. <<Zkid>: This is not clear at all; after 39... Qf4 40. Re1 (SuperPatzer: after 40... Rg5? 41. Qe2! what were you going to do next?) Qf3+ 41. Qg2 Qc3 42. Qe2 (or 42. Rg1?! Qxd4! 43. Rc1 Rc5, no reason to play 42. g6?! as you guys were saying) 42... Rb5!? is far from clear.> True. But 42...g6! 43.d5 exd5 44.exd5 Rxd5 45.Qe6+ (or 45.Qe8+ Kg7 46.Re7+ Kg7 47.Qf8+ Kg5 48.Rxh7 Qxc6 and here W must play not to allow 49...Rd1+ mate)45...Kg7 46.Qxd5 Qxe1+ 47.Kg2 Qe2+ 48.Kg3 Qe3+ 49.Kg2 (d)(49.Kg4?? h5+ 50.Kh4 Qf4+ 51.Kh3 Qg4+ mate) leads to a more "possibly draw" position, unless I went wrong somewhere; which is always a possibility, since I'm not using my software. 
click for larger view<I don't think this puzzle is a medium in any sense of the word.> True also.
And there's so much fun to have when one is doing things the old way... Peace!
<smitha1: <ZUGZWANG67> After 39...Qf4 40 Re1 Qf3 41 Qg2 Qc3 42 Rg1 g6 43 d5 instead of 43... Rxh2+, 43... Qd5 looks simple and undebatable.
Why? The Pawn on c7 is stopped, the Pawn on d5 is in dire straits and the Black Rook is constantly threatening to sac itself on h2. I find working through the variations on Crafty interesting and hugely amusing> Cool if you can enjoy as much as I do! I suppose that you meant 43...Qe5? Ok, I assume. I think that W can afford throwing away a whole bunch of pawns exept the one on the c-file after 44.Rc1. Obviously there is 44...Qc7 but I think 45.dxe6 Re5 46.Qg3 is dangerous to Black. 
click for larger viewPeace! |
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| Aug-12-10 | | VincentL: "Medium".
I am sure this is black to play and draw - but white can play Qg2 against most black moves, and I don't see how the draw can be achieved. I have looked at this for about five minutes, and am not making progress. I have to admit defeat and check. |
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| Aug-12-10 | | culei: You are right nobody reads whatever was written before and keep posting things that were previously refuted The thing goes like this
39 ... Qf4
40 re1 ( the only good move white has made wich attempts to win every other move is not good you can ask for a specific move besides ra1 wich has not been analyzed and if somebody did wich I red didn't do it correctly 40... Qf3+ (blacks only good move because 40... Qg3 loses to re2 I already wrote why) 41 qg2 qc3 ( this isthe drawing move in the. Position )
42 rg1 (qe2 previously has been proven to be a dra)w
42... Qxd4 ( and with this move black offers draw and white has no choice but to take it) 43 c7 rc5 and the pawn is lost ( who knows. Maybe black could even win )
(If 43 e5 43... Qxe5 44 c7 rxh2 draw
Jaja
Sothats the heavily analyzed solution from everyone but sintetised
Any question ill be happy to answer |
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| Aug-12-10 | | ZUGZWANG67: Indeed, <Phony Benoni and Zkid>, I missed this simple tactic and when I re-analysed I forgot a move somewhere. That' why my last post must look a bit weird. Maybe B should consider after 39... Qf4 40. Re1 Qf3+ 41.Qg2 Qc3 42.Rg1 g6 43.d5 
click for larger view42...exd5 instead of 42...Rxh2+. Then 43.exd5 and only now should he play 43...Rxh2+ 44.Kxh2 Qe5+ and: a) 46.Kh3 Qh5+ 47.Kg3 Qg5+ and 48.Kf3 seems refuted by 48...Qxd5+. b)45.Qg3 Qh5+ 46.Qh3 (46.Kg2 Qxd5+) 46...Qe5+ 47.Rg3 (47.Qg3 and again 47...Qh5+) 47...Qe2+ should be it, I think. Note that 48.Kg1 Qe1+ 49.Qf1 fails to 49...Qxg3+ (d). 
click for larger viewIf my analysis holds, this could be the key position for the entire puzzle. The question one should ask now is whether B is less worse here than he was after 39.c6. The interesting point here is that W has toaddress the immediate following problem: he is in check. He can do it by either 50.Kh1 or 50.Qg2. Both are answered with 50...Qd6. But if my analysis is still erroneous, or if W has a sufficient advantage for a win in b), then it's a fake. |
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| Aug-12-10 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: <You are right nobody reads whatever was written before and keep posting things that were previously refuted> Yes, so why is this a problem? Readers will quickly skim over what they've seen before. If several kibitzers miss the same thing that I did, I often find it interesting and illuminating. It is not the purpose of the site to produce an edited, collaborative analysis. If that were the case, CHESSGAMES could just dump high quality engine analysis and save us the effort. Besides that, readers who wake up in a time zone 8 hours after a new puzzle has first appeared should have the same opportunity and challenge to post analysis as those who post earliest, without reading what has previously been posted. Also, different kibitzers have different methods of presentation, which makes things interesting. |
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| Aug-12-10 | | ZUGZWANG67: <<culei>: 42... Qxd4 ( and with this move black offers draw and white has no choice but to take it)> 43.Rc1 Rc5 (no pertpetual now: 43...Rxh2+ 44.Kxh2!) 44.Rxc5 Qxc5 45.e5!? Qxe5 46.Qc2 (46.Qc7?? 47.Qc5!! 46...Qe1+?? 47.Kg2;) 47...Qg5+ draws. |
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Aug-12-10
 | | Check It Out: I could not figure this one out. |
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| Aug-12-10 | | RandomVisitor: After 39...Qf4 40.Re1:
click for larger viewRybka 3: <19-ply>
<[+0.21] 40...g6> 41.e5 Rh3 42.c7 Qf3+ 43.Qg2 Qxg2+ 44.Kxg2 Rc3 45.Rb1 Rxc7 46.Kf3 Kf8 47.Ke4 g5 48.h4 gxh4 49.Rh1 Kg7 50.Rxh4 Rc1 51.Rg4+ Kh6 52.Rf4 [+0.68] 40...h6 41.Qg2 Qd6 42.Qe2 Rh3 43.d5 exd5 44.Qc2 Qf4 45.exd5 Re3 46.Rc1 Re2 47.Qxe2 Qxc1+ 48.Kg2 Qg5+ 49.Kf2 Qh4+ 50.Ke3 Qe7+ 51.Kd2 Qb4+ 52.Kc1 Qc3+ 53.Qc2 Qa1+ 54.Kd2 Qa5+ 55.Ke3 Qxd5 [+0.95] 40...Rh3 41.Qa2 Kf8 42.d5 Rc3 43.Qe2 Kg8 44.Rd1 Rc1 45.Rxc1 Qxc1+ 46.Kg2 Qg5+ 47.Kf1 exd5 48.exd5 Qf4+ 49.Ke1 Qh4+ 50.Kd2 Qb4+ 51.Kc1 Qc3+ 52.Qc2 Qa1+ 53.Kd2 Qa5+ 54.Ke3 Qxd5 55.c7 Qe5+ |
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| Aug-12-10 | | culei: Yeah like that analisis made by rybka I just find it ridiculous
And the worse is that rybka can't defend her moves so what I can do |
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Aug-12-10
 | | benveniste: <smitha>, My engine also found 42. ... Rb5 initially but rejected it in favor of 42... g6 after about 35 seconds. On either line, White's basic strategy is the same. Trade off the rooks while retaining a center passed pawn. |
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| Aug-12-10 | | patzer2: <culei> So what is your improvement on <RandomVisitor>'s Rybka 3 analysis? You may be interested in knowing <RV>'s Rybka analysis played
an essential role in enabling the chessgames.com team, playing as the "World," in going undefeated in five correspondence matches against world class correspondence GMs, with a record of three wins and two draws. That's not to say the analysis might not be wrong, but until I see a refutation I'm inclined to think Rybka has got it right. My take is 39...Qf4!! is an amazing defensive resource, which most probably draws with best play. However, even if someone could find a win for White, this is still, by far, Black's only reasonable chance of holding the game against strong play. |
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| Aug-12-10 | | keramo: the best move for black 36...Qf4 40.Re1, then
the best move for black to maintain drawish position: 40...g6 41.Qe2 Qd6 42.d5 ed5 43.Qc2 (43.ed5 Qd5+ 44.Qg2 Qg2+ 45.Kg2 Rc5 draw.) 44.Qf4 44.ed5 Rd5 draw... |
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| Aug-13-10 | | JohnBoy: I don't see that anyone has pointed out the similarity with the final position of Portisch vs Kasparov, 1981 This trick is a nice tactical save. |
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| Oct-06-15 | | th3doctor: Roiz to the Occasion |
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| Nov-20-15 | | kevin86: The queen and rook force mate quickly...Is it that simple? |
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| Nov-20-15 | | RandomVisitor: After 39...Qf4 40.Re1:
click for larger viewKomodo-9.2-64bit: syzygy TB5
<+0.20/25 40...g6> 41.Qb2 Qf3+ 42.Qg2 Qc3 43.Rf1 Qxc6 44.Qf3 Qe8 45.Qf6 Rb5 46.Kg2 Rb2+ 47.Kh3 Rb3+ 48.Kh4 Rb5 49.Rf3 h6 50.Kh3 Rh5+ 51.Kg2 Rg5+ 52.Kh1 Rb5 53.Kg1 Rb7 54.Qe5 Qc8 55.Rf1 Rf7 56.Rxf7 Kxf7 57.d5 Qc1+ 58.Kg2 Qd2+ 59.Kf3 Qd3+ <+0.36/25 40...h6> 41.Qg2 Qd6 42.Qe2 Rh3 43.Qc2 Qf4 44.Qg2 Rc3 45.Qg6 Qf2 46.Qxe6+ Kf8 47.Qf5+ Qxf5 48.exf5 Rxc6 49.Kg2 Rc2+ 50.Kg3 Rd2 51.Re4 Kf7 52.h4 Kf6 53.Kg4 h5+ 54.Kf3 Kxf5 55.Re5+ Kg6 56.d5 Rd4 57.Ke3 Rd1 58.Kf4 Kf6 59.Rf5+ Ke7 60.Rg5 Rd4+ |
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| Nov-20-15 | | RandomVisitor: After 39...Qf4 40.Re1 g6
click for larger viewKomodo-9.2-64bit:
+0.10/27 41.Qe2 Qd6 42.Rf1 Qxc6 43.Qf3 Qe8 44.Qf6 Rb5 45.Rc1 Rb7 46.h3 Qd7 47.Rc3 Rb8 48.Rf3 Rd8 49.Kg2 Qxd4 50.Qxe6+ Kg7 51.Qf7+ Kh6 52.Qf4+ Kg7 53.Rf2 Qd6 54.Qxd6 Rxd6 55.e5 Re6 56.Re2 Kf7 57.Kf3 Re7 58.Ke4 Ke6 59.Rc2 +0.10/27 41.Qa2 Qf3+ 42.Qg2 Qc3 43.Rf1 Qxc6 44.Qf3 Qe8 45.Qf6 Rb5 46.Rc1 Rb7 47.h3 Qd7 48.Rc3 Rb8 49.Rf3 Rd8 50.Kg2 Qxd4 51.Qxe6+ Kg7 52.Qf7+ Kh6 53.Qf4+ Kg7 54.Rf2 Qd6 55.Qxd6 Rxd6 56.e5 Rd1 57.e6 Re1 58.Rf7+ Kg8 59.Re7 Kf8 60.Rxh7 Rxe6 +0.00/27 41.Qb2 Rh3 42.Qe2 Kg7 43.Kg1 Rc3 44.Qf2 Qg4+ 45.Kh1 Rxc6 46.d5 Rc4 47.d6 e5 48.Qa7+ Kh6 49.Qe3+ Kg7 50.h3 Qh4 51.Qa7+ Kh6 52.Qe3+ Kg7 |
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| Nov-20-15 | | morfishine: Boring Game and yet incredibly, another Non-Pun, thanks a lot <CG> for another waste of time |
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| Nov-20-15 | | RandomVisitor: After 15.Be3
click for larger viewKomodo-9.2-64bit:
<-0.17/32 15...Nf6> 16.f3 Rfc8 17.Rfc1 h6 18.Bf2 Rab8 19.Kg2 Be5 20.Rd1 Nd5 21.Rac1 Bf6 22.Ne4 Be7 23.a5 Rc6 24.Nc3 Nxc3 25.Rxc3 bxa5 26.Qxb7 Rxb7 27.b3 Bf6 28.d4 Rd6 29.Rxc5 Rxb3 30.Rxa5 Rb2 31.Re1 Bd8 32.Rc5 Bb6 33.Rc8+ Rd8 34.Rc6 Ba5 |
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Kibitzing
