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Later Kibitzing> |
| Oct-24-10 | | SugarDom: Apparently the game is lost after Anand made the time control. Houdini came up with this line: [FEN " 
click for larger view"]
41. Ba4 h4
42. Bb5 h3
43. g3 e5+
44. Kd5 f4
45. g4 Kg5
46. Be2 Kf6
47. Ke4 Kg5
48. Kxe5 Kh4
49. Bf3 Kg5
50. Bd1 Kh4
51. Kf6 g5
52. Kf5 f3
53. Ke4 Kxg4
54. Bxf3+ Kh4
55. Bd1 g4
56. Kf4 Kh5
57. Ba4 Kh6
58. Be8 Kg7
59. Kg5 Kf8
60. Bh5 Kg7
61. Bg6 Kg8
click for larger viewand mate in 17 moves... |
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| Oct-24-10 | | SugarDom: But then again the question arises whether in this position of B+2p vs 4p can be drawn by black with perfect play assuming that white find the best move after 40.Bd1
click for larger view |
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| Oct-24-10 | | SugarDom: Specially that the bishop is wrong colored. (h8 is dark squared)... |
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| Oct-24-10 | | SugarDom: Apparently black still loses:
I tried a depth 25-29 shootout and this is the possible continuation... 40...e5+ 1.37/30
41.Kd5 1.44/31 h6 1.45/29
42.Be2 1.45/29 h5 1.48/28
43.Kd6 1.56/28 h4 1.71/26
44.Kd5 2.07/27 g5 2.15/24
45.Ba6 2.94/24 e4 3.16/24
46.Bf1 3.17/24 e3 3.71/24
47.Kd4 3.86/25 h3 5.22/27
48.g3 5.22/24 Kf7 5.22/22
49.Kxe3 5.77/25 f4+ 6.18/26
50.Kf3 6.26/25 fxg3 6.42/24
51.hxg3 6.60/24 h2 7.20/24
52.Kg2 7.20/24 Kf6 7.20/23
53.Kxh2 8.39/23
click for larger viewand White wins... |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Tograh: There's been a lot of analysis about the 4 pawn ending, apparently it's a draw with precise play. The losing move was 42. ... g5? when 42. ... e5! holds. But I wonder if Anand couldn't have made things a lot easier for himself with 35. ... Rh1! 36. h3 (forced) then Rc1 |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Eric Farley: To beat the World Champion has meant different things at different times. If one beat Capablanca or Alekhine one could be proud; but beating such a lousy, mediocre champ like Anand is no big deal. |
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| Oct-24-10 | | SugarDom: <Tograh: The losing move was 42. ... g5? when 42. ... e5! holds.> It still loses apparently:
42...e5+ 2.74/33
click for larger view43.Kd5 2.74/33 e4 2.74/32
44.Bf1 2.74/32 e3 2.74/25
45.Kd4 2.88/27 Kf7 2.88/25
46.Kxe3 3.43/24 Kg7 3.72/25
47.Bd3 4.18/26 Kf7 4.33/24
48.Kd4 4.50/25 Ke6 4.62/25
49.Ba6 4.76/26 Kf6 5.01/24
50.Bc8 5.63/25 Kf7 6.78/27
51.Ke5 7.06/28 Ke7 7.62/25
52.Bxf5 8.57/26 Kf7 8.97/23
53.Be6+ 8.97/22 Ke7 9.29/21
54.h3 9.30/22 Kd8 9.62/21
55.Kf6 10.66/21
click for larger viewand white wins... |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Bridgeburner: I agree with <SugarDom> that <42...e5+> loses, and does so just as routinely as <42...g5>. |
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| Oct-24-10 | | whiteshark: Unfortunately they don't announce at which level they intend to play the next game. |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Tograh: I definitely agree that if you let the computer play black, 42. ... e5! loses. Truth is, computers are relatively poor at endgames (compared to middlegame phase). |
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| Oct-24-10 | | SugarDom: <Tograh:But I wonder if Anand couldn't have made things a lot easier for himself with 35. ... Rh1! 36. h3 (forced) then Rc1> If 35...Rh1
click for larger view35... Rh1 36. h3 Rc1 37. Kd3 Kf8 38. Rxc3 Rxc3+ 39. Kxc3 Ke7 40. Kd4 Kd6 41.
Bd1 f5 42. Bb3 e5+ 43. Kd3 Ke7 44. Ke3 Kf6 45. Bd5 h5 46. Bb3 h4 47. Ba2 Ke7
48. Kd2 Kd6 49. Kd3 Ke7 50. Bb3 Kf6 51. Ke3 Kg7 52. Bc4 Kf6 53. Bf1 g5 54. Bc4
0.55/29 4 e4 0.55/28 13 55. Bd5 0.55/27 7 Ke5 0.55/26 6 56. Bc6 0.55/
27 6 f4+ 0.55/26 6 57. Kd2 0.55/27 6 Kd4 0.55/26 6 58. Bd7 0.55/26 5
Kd5 0.55/28 6 59. Bg4 0.55/28 6 Kc6 0.55/28 6 60. Bd1 0.55/28 5 Kd6
0.55/29 6 61. Be2 0.55/28 5 Kc5 0.55/29 5 62. Bh5 0.55/29 5 Kd4 0.55/
29 5 63. Bg4 0.55/28 5 Ke5 0.42/27 5 64. Kc2 0.42/28 6 Kd4 0.42/29 5
65. Kd2 0.42/28 6 Ke5 0.42/29 6 66. Kc3 0.42/29 5 Kd5 0.42/25 5 67. Kc2
0.42/25 6 Kd4 0.42/29 5 68. Kd1 0.42/29 5 Ke3 0.42/30 6 69. Ke1 0.42/
21 9 Kd3 0.42/29 5 70. Bf5 0.42/30 5 Ke3 0.42/23 6 71. Kf1 0.42/29 5
Kd3 0.42/30 5 72. Kf2 0.42/30 5 Kd4 0.42/22 5 73. Bg4 0.42/30 5 Kd3
0.42/30 5 74. Be2+ 0.42/30 5 Kc2 0.42/31 6 75. Ke1 0.42/30 6 e3 0.42/
24 6 76. Bb5 0.42/31 5 Kc3 0.42/32 6 77. Bc6 0.42/31 5 Kb2 0.42/32 6
78. Bb5 0.42/32 5 Kb3 0.42/32 5 79. Ke2 0.42/32 6 Kc3 0.42/32 5 80. Bd3
0.42/31 5 Kd4 0.42/31 5 81. Bc2 0.42/30 5 Kc3 0.42/28 5 82. Bd1 0.42/
31 6 Kc4 0.42/24 5 83. Kf1 0.42/31 7 Kb4 0.42/31 5 84. Ke1 0.42/32 5
Kb5 0.42/32 5 85. Bf3 0.42/32 5 Kb4 0.42/25 5 86. Ke2 0.42/32 6 Kc3
0.42/25 6 87. Bd5 0.42/32 5 Kd4 0.42/24 6 88. Bb3 0.42/31 5 Kc3 0.42/
30 5 89. Bd1 0.42/30 6 Kc4 0.42/24 6 90. Bc2 0.42/31 6 Kc3 0.42/24 6
91. Be4 0.42/32 7 Kc4 0.42/25 5 92. Bf3 0.42/33 13 Kd4 0.42/24 5 93.
Bh5 0.42/32 5 Kc3 0.42/32 6 94. Ke1 0.42/31 6 Kd4 0.42/34 2 95. Be2
0.42/33 6 Kc3 0.42/24 5 96. Bb5 0.42/33 5 Kb4 0.42/32 5 97. Bd3 0.42/
32 5 Kc3 0.42/32 6 98. Ke2 0.42/32 6 Kd4 0.42/31 5 99. Bg6 0.42/32 6
Kc3 0.42/32 6 100. Bf5 0.42/32 6 Kd4 0.42/28 6 101. Bg4 0.42/31 6 Ke4
0.42/32 6 102. Bd7 0.42/28 6 Kd4 0.42/23 5 103. Bc6 0.42/28 5 Kc4 0.42/
30 6 104. Bf3 0.42/28 5 Kd4 0.42/23 6 105. Ke1 0.42/28 4 Kc3 0.42/30 5
106. Be4 0.42/28 5 Kd4 0.42/28 6 107. Bb7 0.42/30 6 Kc5 0.42/26 6 108.
Ba6 0.42/27 6 Kb4 0.42/23 6 109. Be2 0.42/29 6 Ka4 0.42/30 5 110. Kd1
0.42/28 6 Kb3 0.42/24 6 111. Bg4 0.42/29 5 Kb2 0.42/28 5 112. Ke2 0.42/
27 6 Kc2 0.42/24 6 113. Bf5+ 0.37/26 6 Kc3 0.37/27 5 114. Bc8 0.34/24 5
Kc2 0.30/24 8 115. Be6 0.30/22 6 Kc3 0.28/25 6 116. Bd5 0.18/26 6 Kc2
0.00/24 5 117. Be4+ 0.00/28 6 Kc3 0.00/28 5 *
click for larger view
position after 117...kc3
Houdini evaluates the position at 0.0 depth 34. The game will end into repetition of moves or the 50-move rule for the draw... |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Eyal: <SugarDom: It [...e5+] still loses apparently: 42...e5+ 2.74/33
43.Kd5 2.74/33 e4 2.74/32
44.Bf1 2.74/32 e3 2.74/25>
<Bridgeburner: I agree with <SugarDom> that <42...e5+> loses, and does so just as routinely as <42...g5>.> How does it lose after <44…Kg5> instead of …e3? This computer line doesn’t address the ideas that were mentioned in Shipov/Muller’s analysis. |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Tograh: Thank you Sugardom for Houdini's "confirmation" that 35. ... Rh1! would have been a (quicker?) draw.
Actually, the human would think this way - I fix the pawn on h3, the g3 pawn is backward unless pushed to g4, and easier to attack. Something like that, with not much calculation. I am sure that Anand in a better form would have found 35. ... Rh1! This sort of move I think is not too hard to find even for a player at 2500. Apparently Anand just cracked in the endgame, something that happened also in the recent World Champ match. That's very human! |
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| Oct-24-10 | | SugarDom: <Eyal: How does it lose after <44…Kg5> instead of …e3? This computer line doesn’t address the ideas that were mentioned in Shipov/Muller’s analysis.> If after 42...e5+ 2.74/33
43.Kd5 2.74/33 e4 2.74/32
44.Bf1 2.74/32 Kg5
click for larger viewWhite wins by
45. Ke5 2.95/32 4 h3 2.89/27 6
46. g3 2.89/27 6 e3 2.95/26 5
47. Be2 4.36/29 6 Kh6 4.36/21 5
48. Kd4 5.08/24 6Kg7 5.37/23 6
49. Kxe3 5.72/24 6 Kf7 5.76/25 6
50. Bf1 6.19/24 7 Ke6 6.30/22 6
51. Bxh3 6.46/22 5 Ke5 6.81/21 6
52. Bf1 7.47/22 6 g5 7.43/20 6
53. Bc4 8.71/21 5 Kd6 9.07/23 5
54. Kd4 9.44/21 5 f4 9.44/20 6
55. Ke4 11.88/21 6 fxg3 9.53/18 6
56. hxg3 12.48/24 5)
click for larger view |
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| Oct-24-10 | | SugarDom: <Eyal: <SugarDom> Once again, the computer line doesn't address the analysis that's already been discussed here - the point of 44...Kg5 is to continue with <45...f4>, not h3.> Congratulations <eyal>. The position does beat the computer. After 45...f4 this is the position after move 103...kd8 
click for larger viewHoudini could not find a win and finally evaluates the position to <0.02>. depth 59 Perhaps i got to install the 1.5 terabyte 6-man table bases. :) |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Eyal: OK, I'm glad to hear that:-) Just to recap the basic drawing idea:
click for larger viewHere, after 45...f4, the basic two options are either 46.h3 f3, so that White remains with the h-pawn (the wrong colored outside pawn) or 46.Kxe4 h3 47.g3 fxg3 48.hxg3 h2 49.Bg2 Kg4, with White's last pawn eliminated. |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Tograh: Sugardom, I think you're genuinely trying to add to the knowledge of the very fine positions of this game. For that I thank you. I do have an observation to make though. I think it would be better for your chess if you can somehow combine human principles with computer calculations. Even top GMs rely on computers a great deal, but with human checking. You will find your chess improving, if you learn to be independent of "what Houdini says". |
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| Oct-24-10 | | anildere: what happens if black plays 29. ...c3 |
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Oct-24-10
 | | Sastre: If 29...c3, then 30.Qxc3. |
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| Oct-24-10 | | Bridgeburner: <Eyal>
That is quite an education in this kind of endgame. I knew that the key to Black's game was to eliminate White's g-pawn either by removal through exchange or by forcing it to the h-file. But I failed to find the mechanism to do so, and wrongly concluded the game was lost for Black. My search for this solution was diluted by my incorrect assumption that even with one or more h-pawns, tempo play could force Black to move his pawn to turn the h-pawn back into a g-pawn. This, however, is obviously wrong as the only way of doing so eliminates Black's last mobile piece: 
click for larger viewEither to move draws.
Nor does forcing Black to keep two pawns work:
After 44...Kg5 45. Kxe4 f4 46. Kxe4 h3 47. gxh3 Kh4 48. Bb5 g5 49. Bg4: 
click for larger view<49...f3> draws whichever way White captures. One is a stalemate and the other loses both h-pawns. |
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| Oct-25-10 | | VShukla: What happens if black plays 28 ... c3 ? |
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Oct-25-10
| | Sastre: 28...c3 29.Rxc3 Rxd4 30.Rxc8+ Kg7 31.Rxd4. |
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| Oct-25-10 | | Whitehat1963: Well, that's it. I'm sure Anand's days are over. He's doomed from here on out. His time is past. Look for Bacrot and Carlsen to compete for the world championship for the next 15 years or so. Who would have believed it? |
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| Oct-26-10 | | ceebo: I was looking at Mueller's analysis here:
http://www.chessbase.com/news/2010/... He gives 42...e5+ 43.Ke3 g5 44.Ba6 f4+ 45.Kf3 e4+ 46.Kxe4 etc. as a draw however 46.Kg4 is winning. 
click for larger viewAn example continuation is 46...f3 47.g3 Ke5 48.Bb7 f2 49.Ba6 Kd4 50.Kxg5 Ke3 51.Kg4 and white wins. 
click for larger viewI believe that the losing move in this variation is 43...g5 and that 43...e4 should transpose back into previously discussed draws. |
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| Jun-28-12 | | LoveThatJoker: Terrific and tenacious win from GM Bacrot!
LTJ |
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Kibitzing
