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Ghate Swathi vs Nigel Short
"Cut a Wide Swathi" (game of the day Apr-15-2011)
11th BCC Thailand Open (2011), Pattaya THA, rd 4, Apr-13
French Defense: Winawer. Classical Variation (C18)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 5 OF 8 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-17-11  ughaibu: Including shouting at the controller when it was Spassky's move, in 1972?
Apr-17-11  Jim Bartle: I didn't know he did that. Obviously unfair.
Apr-17-11  fab4: <ughaibu: Including shouting at the controller when it was Spassky's move, in 1972?>

You gotta source for this?

Apr-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: I second that question. Like Jim Bartle, I have always read that Fischer was a perfect gentleman during his games.
Apr-17-11  ughaibu: The source is Spassky. More less than perfect behaviour; Fischer's habit of wiping imaginary specks of dust from his opponents' side of the board, when the opponent is to move, his resigning by sweep the pieces off the board. You people are familiar with Fischer, why would you imagine him to be a "perfect gentleman"?
Apr-17-11  fab4: Fischer's behaviour at the board was impeccable.

Playing conditions for the tournament chess player in the 50's and 60's were far less than perfect. Tournament organisers did'nt put the chess players themselves first.. and there was a culture of a lack of respect to the ordinary chess player..

Fischer fought against this.. fought for the rights of the chess player.Much of which has borne fruit now, and is now taken for granted.

And much of which is stiil perceived as 'gamesmanship'... Which is ridiculous.

Apr-17-11  fab4: <ughaibu:>.. Where's your source? I repeat?
Apr-17-11  fab4: Spassky has always stated Fischer was the perfect gentleman over the board.. Source?
Apr-17-11  ughaibu: The claim that all Fischer's opponents state that he was a perfect gentleman over the board is yours, where are your citations?
Apr-17-11  fab4: <ughaibu: The claim that all Fischer's opponents state that he was a perfect gentleman over the board is yours, where are your citations?>

I'm sorry. You've bludgeoned into this claiming RJF was a bad sportsman over the board. It's you who should be supplying sources.. So?

Apr-17-11  Once: This is getting sillier by the minute. Let's try to set the record straight.

In the 1972 World Championship match, Fischer's behaviour was ... shall we say "unusual"? He arrives late. He complains constantly about the playing conditions.

No-one knows why he did this. A legitimate campaign for better playing conditions? Perhaps, but that does not explain the late arrival. A tactic to try and unnerve his opponent? Perhaps, but I get the impression that Fischer would have preferred his chess ability to do the talking.

But since 1972, the argument has raged. In My Great Predecessors volume 4, Kasparov says this: "I have a sceptical regard for such a struggle for the rights of a player. When Fischer was winning, he fell silent, but as soon as the course of the match ceased to appeal to him, the protests and conflicts began... It seems to me that for him this was a means of both urging himself on, and of putting pressure on the opponent. That's it: putting pressure on the opponent! And whereas Spassky was very susceptible to this, I am sure that such tricks would not have worked with Karpov...."

That's Kasparov's view, but there are plenty of others who would argue the other way. And there's the rub - opinion is divided on this one. It would be fatuous to say anything else.

My own theory is that these complaints were mainly a manifestation of Fischer's nervous energy and he did not mean to put Spassky off. It seems he did manage to unnerve Spassky, though, because the Russions launched their own counter-complaint with accusations that Fischer was receiving messages through his chair. You couldn't make it up.

The debate will never be resolved one way or the other. I have noticed that many Russians (eg Kasparov and Tal) tend to argue in favour of "Fischer tricks" whilst many Americans say that Bobby was blameless.

I am in the happy position of being neither American or Russian, so I sit on the fence on this one. And that is why I said that the complaints were either in Fischer's mind <or> part of his gamesmanship.

But you can hardly say that there was a large element of luck involved, which was the original source of this somewhat pointless argument.

Apr-17-11  ughaibu: Fab4: I did not claim that Fischer was a bad sportsman, I stated that your claim that he was a perfect gentleman is rubbish, and that it is, is well established. As a fully fledged Fischer-nut, dont you think that you should be aware of this stuff?
Apr-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: If it's "well established," ughaibu, why can't you provide a single source. Not "Spassky," whatever that means. I mean a book or magazine, page number, etc. I have read practically everything ever written on Fischer, and have never seen such a claim made by anyone.
Apr-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  tpstar: Yes, Fischer was a perfect gentleman over the board - except when he wasn't.

Fischer vs Najdorf, 1960

Apr-17-11  ughaibu: Seriously, do you think all the stories are fabrications? Petrosianic says that Spassky retold this in an interview in 1977, I assume in whatever was the leading US chess magazine.

For another contavention of gentlemanliness, see this game: Pachman vs Fischer, 1959

Apr-17-11  Mozart72: "Bobby Fischer Goes To War: How The Soviets Lost The Most Extraordinary Chess Match Of All Time", authors: David Edmonds and Jhon Eidinow. Read the book, people.
Apr-17-11  fab4: <ughaibu: Fab4: I did not claim that Fischer was a bad sportsman, I stated that your claim that he was a perfect gentleman is rubbish, and that it is, is well established. As a fully fledged Fischer-nut, dont you think that you should be aware of this stuff? >

Don't try and portray me as anything when you don't know me..

It was you who bludgeoned into all this ..accusing Fischer of being a bad sportsman over the board.. !

Again.. I ask you.. where are your sources for this ??

Apr-17-11  fab4: @ <Once> .. Gazza's opinions on RJf ?! lol
Apr-17-11  fab4: <tpstar: Yes, Fischer was a perfect gentleman over the board - except when he wasn't. Fischer vs Najdorf, 1960
>

I'm sorry, but this is irrelevent. A players reaction after the game is different from the accusations being made on here..

and sure , out of such a career, you searched good and hard for this game lol...

Apr-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <Mozart72: "Bobby Fischer Goes To War: How The Soviets Lost The Most Extraordinary Chess Match Of All Time", authors: David Edmonds and Jhon Eidinow. Read the book, people.>

I have. What are you referring to? As for Fischer's alleged poor behavior in the 1959 and 1960 games, (a) I still haven't seen what one would call a "citation"; (b) Fischer was under 18 at the time of both of these games.

Apr-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Here's an actual citation. Try them sometime:

<"Fischer behaved well at the board. He never complained with the object of upsetting an opponent, and indeed sometimes his concern was for both players."> David Hooper and Kenneth Whyld, The Oxford Companion to Chess (2nd ed. 1992), p. 138.

Apr-17-11  Once: I have about half a dozen books covering the 1972 World Championship - including Bobby Fischer Goes to War and "White King and Red Queen".

Opinions about Fischer's conduct seem fairly evenly mixed, with some suggesting gamesmanship and some not. I guess we will never know.

Even the Oxford Companion needs to be read carefully. The same article says that Fischer's late arrival at Rekjavik may have been brinkmanship (page 138, column 1).

And we have the very precise phrasing "Fischer behaved well <at the board>" - perhaps leaving open the inference that he did not behave so well away from the board.

Apr-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <Once> I'm talking about his behavior at the board, which is what I thought we were discussing. There's no dispute that away from the board he was a huge headache for organizers. Personally, I don't think he was trying to upset his opponents with these tactics, but who knows?
Apr-17-11  bartonlaos: His behavior over the board during game three against Spassky in the private room was pretty bad. It was related by Spassky in an article. Lombardy also wrote about it.
Apr-17-11  Mozart72: Can you measure the White King's safety and the Black King's safety on the chess board?
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