< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Nov-24-14|| ||zb2cr: 15 Qg8+, Rxg8; 16. Nf7#. It's not quite the classic smothered mate, but 'tis enough, 'twill serve.|
|Nov-24-14|| ||morfishine: <Once> Good points, but shouldn't the query start with 12...exd4?? allowing 13.Qxf7+|
|Nov-24-14|| ||laskereshevsky: ....oh!.. C'mon....|
|Nov-24-14|| ||Penguincw: Ooh. I nearly got it wrong, but when I saw the bishop on a2, I knew it would be a smothered mate (just not the typical windmill).|
|Nov-24-14|| ||patzer2: <Once> Nice call with the game saving 14...Ne5! I spotted it after seeing Monday's smothered mate solution 15. Qg8+ Rxg8 16. Nf7#.|
Also went to Fritz to confirm 14...Ne5! as a winning alternative. Here's the result of my look at <14...♘e5! > with Fritz 12:
<14... ♘e5! 15. h4>
If 15. Qf4, then dxc3 16. bxc3 Nd3+ 17. Kf1 Nxf4 18. Nf7+ Kg8 19. Nxd8+ Nfd5 20. e4 Rxe4 21. Be3 Nc4 22. Bd4 b5 .
If 15... Nxf7?, White regains the advantage after 16. Nxf7+ Kg8 17. Nxd8+ Kf8 (17... Kh8?? 18. Nf7+ Kg8 19. Nd6+ ) 18. Nb5! axb5 19. Bb4+ to
when play might continue 19...Re7 20. Rc1 c6 21. h5! g5 22. Rc5! Bf6 23. Nxc6 bxc6 24. Rxc6 Nd7 25. O-O dxe3 26. fxe3 Ke8 27. Rfc1 Bb7 28. Rxf6 Nxf6 29. Bxe7 Kxe7 30. Rc7+ Kd6 31. Rxb7 Kc6 32. Rf7 Nxh5 33. Rxh7 Ng3 34. Kf2 Ne4+ 35. Kf3 Ra4 36. Rh6+ Kc7 37. Bd5 g4+ 38. Ke2 Ng3+ 39. Kf2 Ne4+ 40. Bxe4 Rxe4 41. Ke2 .
<16. ♕b3 dxc3 17. ♗xc3 ♕e8 18. O-O ♘a4 19. ♗d4 h6 20. f4 ♘c6 21. ♗xg7+ ♔xg7 22. ♕xa4 hxg5 > Here, Fritz gives a -3.5 advantage for black (-3.53 @ 20 depth).
P.S.: As to the "philosophical question," I see nothing wrong with trying to pull off a swindle with 14. Ng5!? After all, there's no moral imperative to play the "best move," and in this case the computer choice 14. Ne2 loses to 14...Be6! 15. Bxe6 Re8 .
|Nov-24-14|| ||patzer2: < morfishine: <Once> Good points, but shouldn't the query start with 12...exd4?? allowing 13.Qxf7+> Perhaps it should be 12. Qb3?? exd4!!, since 13. Qxf7+ Kh8 wins with best play.|
|Nov-24-14|| ||Nightsurfer: The motive of the smothered checkmate in this game here, namely by the help of a Bishop that supports the Queen - <15.Qg8+!! Rxg8 16.Nf7#> and <1-0> - , is a replay of a similar motive that has been demonstrated at the end of the game T Peine vs V Budde, 1970 just 24 years ago in <Uelzen, Germany, 1970>.|
|Nov-24-14|| ||kevin86: Smothered mate...decoy
The rook is lured fron f8 and the knight comes in at f7 to mate.
|Nov-24-14|| ||Once: <morfishine: <Once> Good points, but shouldn't the query start with 12...exd4?? allowing 13.Qxf7+>|
12...exd4 is a tricky move. Fritzie calls it as black's best move after 12. Qb3, with an evaluation of -1 plus scraps.
The point is that after 13. Qxf7+ Kh8 ...
click for larger view
... white's attack ought to have come to an end. He now has to do something about his attacked knight. Black has the better development.
In fact, as Patzer2 says, Fritz calls 12. Qb3 a mistake which turns a roughly level position into a strong position for black.
But ... the lure of Qb3-Qxf7+ is strong. It certainly looks as if it ought to be good for white and I suspect I would have wanted to play it too.
With a cool head and a cold heart, silicon doesn't get so excited about 13. Qxf7+ or 12. Qb3 and does like 12...exd4.
I don't think I would have seen that over the board!
|Nov-24-14|| ||chrisowen: At oomph g8 smothered mate woah nip in the g5.
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|Nov-24-14|| ||BOSTER: <Once: the difficult philosophical question...was 14.Ng5 a good move or not?>.|
<patzer2: I see nothing wrong with trying to pull off a swindle with 14.Ng5>.
I believe that 14.Ng5 was simple a blunder. As a chess player you must to look all opponent's respond, at least to see the pos. half move ahead.
I don't want to be offensive, but if <patzer2> can not understand it-this is his problem.
And I want to add. Sometimes <CG> give us the POTD, where to reach such pos. the player made the rude mistake and then won the game. This is not very good for educational goals, because it creates an illusion that you can go wrong way but come to Rome.
|Nov-24-14|| ||patzer2: <Boster> So if 14. Ng5 is a blunder, what's the better alternative? Fritz gives 14. Ne2, which loses to 14...Be6! 15. Bxe6 Rf8 .|
So in this case where the position is clearly lost with the "best move" 14. Ne2, why should it be considered a "blunder" to go for a swindle with 14. Ng5!? After all, it worked in this game.
|Nov-24-14|| ||David2009: Let's rewind to move 12.
click for larger view
(H Pohlenz vs M Pinel 1994 12?)
After 12.Qb3 what should Black have played to avoid the disaster in the game?
This is an interesting problem in accurate defence - congratulations if you can solve it without an engine!
PS- I couldn't - but the right answer liws buried in the kibitzing.
|Nov-24-14|| ||Dr. J: <BOSTER I don't want to be offensive, but if <patzer2> can not understand it-this is his problem.>|
BOSTER, I have crossed analytic swords with patzer2 before, and he is skilled and thorough. In this case, he is clearly saying that IN A LOST POSITION he sees nothing wrong with trying a one-move swindle, as anything beyond a superficial reading shows.
If you don't want to be offensive, don't say offensive things.
|Nov-24-14|| ||starry2013: Like others I didn't see the bishop within the first few seconds, but once I saw it the possibility of Queen sacrifice opened up.|
|Nov-24-14|| ||Sniffles: Did anyone work on 14... Qf6? 15 QxQ BxQ and position gained. 15 Qb3 not viable.|
|Nov-24-14|| ||Once: <BOSTER> You are missing the point. |
In this game white embarks on a faulty plan. The idea of Qb3-Qxf7+ is superficially attractive but it leaves too many pieces en prise. With accurate defence black should have won.
By the time that we get to 13...Kh8
click for larger view
... white has the choice between a passive knight retreat (Ne2, Nb1, Nd1), a speculative knight advance (14. Nd5) or the aggressive (14. Ng5).
14. Ng5 indirectly protects the Nc3, as 14...dxc3 allows the same smothered mate as in the POTD solution.
None of white's available moves are great for him. As Patzer2 says, 14. Ne2 is the best of the bunch, but even this scores only -1.something.
14. Ng5 is around about a pawn worse than 14. Ne2, but it gives black more problems to think about. It also gives black a chance to go wrong, which he cheerfully accepts.
This then gives white a choice. Does he play the objectively best move in 14. Ne2 and allow black the chance to counter attack? Or does he play the swindle with 14. Ng5 - which might not be the strongest move but gives black plenty of chances to go wrong?
This boils down to a matter of taste or playing style. Some players will play the best move even though it is passive, hoping to turn around the position later on. Such a player might argue that 14. Ne2 is only -1.2 (ish). That's not yet terminal.
A more adventurous player might play 14. Ng5, particularly if he believes that his opponent won't spot the best reply.
It's the difference between Karpov and Tal, Petrosian and Alekhine.
Far, far more complicated than "simple a blunder." You would do well to read Patzer2's analysis instead of trying to be offensive about it.
|Nov-24-14|| ||BOSTER: < Once >. l've read <patzer2 > analysis.
Every risk should be estimated ,what is at stake . I'd play 14.Nd1
and if Be6 15.Qf4.|
|Nov-24-14|| ||1stboard: Black on move 12 should have played Be6 ....|
|Nov-24-14|| ||BOSTER: < patzer2>. My apology.|
|Nov-24-14|| ||Nullifidian: 15. ♕g8+ ♖xg8 16. ♘f7#|
|Nov-24-14|| ||patzer2: <Boster> Thanks! No offense taken. When I was an active player, I was known for always trying for the objective but elusive "best move." |
So I understand where you are coming from in the discussion about less than the best move "swindle" attempts.
By the way I like your 14. Nd1!? try for complications, even if "best play" leaves it lost. Here's a look with Fritz 12:
<14. Nd1 Be6 15. Qf4> 15...dxe3! (-4.44 @ 20/44 depth)
when play might continue 16. fxe3 Bxa2 17. Rxa2 Qd3 18. Ra1 Rad8 19. Nf2 Qb5 20. a4 Qxb2 21. O-O Ne5! 22. Ne4 Rf8 23. Qg5 Nxf3+ 24. gxf3 Rxd2 25. Nxd2 Qxd2 26. Rad1 Qe2 27. Rfe1 Qxf3 28. Rf1 Qxh3 29. Rxf8+ Bxf8 30. Rd8 Kg7 31. Qe5+ Kg8 32. Qe4 Qf5 33. Qxf5 gxf5 34. Rb8 Nxa4 35. Rxb7 Bd6
|Nov-25-14|| ||RookFile: I wonder if the two players in this game even play chess anymore. It would probably surprise them to see this game being discussed here.|
|Nov-25-14|| ||Once: <BOSTER> 14. Nd1 Be6 15. Qf4 gives white a worse position than 14. Ng5. White is being driven into a passive position while black's pieces are becoming more active. White will also have to do something about his uncastled king, his knight on the back rank and the threat of dxe3 exposing the Re8's attack on the black king.|
White faces a long game with the grim prospect of a steadily worsening position. I have an older version of Fritz than Patzer2 - my version is giving an evaluation of -3.08 after either 15...Bax2 or 15...dxe3. I can well believe that Patzer2's Fritz is showing an evaluation of the wrong side of -4 after a deeper analysis.
And with 14. Nd1 white no longer has the swindle attempt that he would have with 14. Ng5.
That's why 14. Ng5 is interesting. It might not be the best move, but it won the game almost immediately. It is a case of playing the man and not the board.
On a more general note, when someone with the experience of Patzer2 says something, I start from the presumption that he is probably right. And on the rare occasions when I do disagree with him, I will try to do that in a sympathetic, friendly and non-challenging way.
Something for you to think about, hmm?
|Nov-25-14|| ||BOSTER: <Once > : Ng5 . Such move is called " Dirty trick".|
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