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Later Kibitzing> |
Jun-06-25
 | | jnpope: What are the odds that his name was actually Thomas Herbert Holloway Worrall? |
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Jun-06-25
 | | MissScarlett: Or changed his name from <Holloway> to <Herbert>. Or William, merchant of Liverpool, had two sons, in 1805 and c.1807. Or <Thomas Holloway> is simply a red herring. |
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Jun-06-25
| | jnpope: Well, I don't have anything new on Herbert Worrall, but I did find a family tree that yield this data:
Thomas Hollaway Worrall (born 5 Nov 1805–died 1877). Buried 26 Apr 1877 at Heaton-Norris, England.
Also William and Elizabeth's daughter Emily is given as being born on 31 July 1807; which seems problematic for them to have had a second son born in 1807(!).
I'm guessing that the <Liverpool Mercury>, 1878.09.30, p7, erroneously mixed up Herbert Worrall with Hollaway Worrall.
As I've mentioned before, I don't have access to the UK records at Ancy.com, so you'll have to do more sleuthing to see if Hollaway Worrall did indeed die in 1877. |
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| Jun-06-25 | | WilhelmThe2nd: This is from a handwritten book of transcriptions from gravestones at St. James Churchyard, Toxteth Park, Liverpool. (The handwriting is not always clear. In some cases the last syllable of the name of the month may have been abbreviated; the full names of the months are given in the version below): <No 587
Double Grave, Feat. Stones
Sacred to the Memory of Agusta the fifth Daughter of William and Elizabeth Worrall who died the 14th April 181_ Aged 11 Mons. 8 Days Also of Theodore the Second Son of the above who died 2nd August 1818 Aged of 7 Mons. 5 Days. Of Such is the Kingdom of Heaven. Luke XVIII.V.XV. Also of Elizabeth (Mother of the above and of eight Surviving Children) who died suddenly the 28th January 1820 Aged 40 years.
Be ye ready also for the Son of Man cometh at an hour when ye think not. Luke XII. Ch.XL.V.
To me to Die is gain Phil. I C.XXI.V.
Also of Mary Elizabeth Kesselmeyer Grand-Son[sic] of the above who died November 13th 1838 Aged 1 year and 6 Mons. Also of Charles Johannes Kesselmeyer Grandson of the above who died 4th April 1841. Aged 9 months. Also of Edward Agustus Kesselmeyer Grandson of the above who died 27th August 1842. Aged 5 Months. Also Elizabeth Seventh Daughter of William and Elizabeth Worrall who died July 11th 1847 Aged 32 years.
Her end was peace.
Also Octavia eighth Daughter of William and Elizabeth Worrall who died February 18th 1864.
'I shall yet praise Him'
Also William Husband of the above Elizabeth Worrall who died September 2nd 1864 Aged 87.
'Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord; even So Saith the Spirit' Also Emily third Daughter of the above William and Elizabeth Worrall, who died 22nd May 1880 Aged 72 years. ---
William Worrall No 1505.>
There is a burial record for <Augusta daughter of William and Elizabeth Worrall> from April 17, 1813 at St. James Church, Liverpool. The burial record there for <William Worrall> on Sept. 10, 1864 gives his abode as <District of Horndean in the County of Southampton>. There is a baptismal record for an <Emily Worrall - fourth daughter of William Worrall & Elizabeth (formerly Diggles) Born: 31 Jul 1807> here: https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpoo... This appears to support the idea that the Elizabeth Worrall who died 1820.01.28 was formerly Elizabeth Diggles. |
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Jun-06-25
| | jnpope: http://tartajubow.blogspot.com/2014... Mentions him being a British Army officer. |
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Jun-06-25
| | MissScarlett: <Well, I don't have anything new on Herbert Worrall, but I did find a family tree that yield this data: Thomas Hollaway Worrall (born 5 Nov 1805–died 1877). Buried 26 Apr 1877 at Heaton-Norris, England.> I saw that but there's a problem. The source is a transcription from the collection <England, Select Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991>. The record concerns <Thomas Worrall> and the father is <William>. It's unusual for the father's name to appear in a burial record. Ancestry links to a suggested record which shows an actual burial register for the parish of Great Lever (it's about 15 miles from Heaton Norris, on the other side of Manchester). This record concerns a <Thomas, son of William Worrall>, the burial date is April 26th 1877, and the age of the deceased is.....12 - which would account for the <son of>. <I'm guessing that the <Liverpool Mercury>, 1878.09.30, p7, erroneously mixed up Herbert Worrall with Hollaway Worrall.> How so? Look at the notice: <"Deaths...WORRALL—Sept. 6, at New York, Thomas H. Worrall, only son of the late William Worrall, merchant, of this town; fondly and deeply regretted." (The Liverpool Mercury, Monday, Sept. 30th, 1878, page 7)> Notices of this type (including births and marriages) are contributed by family members or associates. Most likely a family member in Liverpool who received the news from America, or perhaps one from New York who wanted to alert relatives or friends back in the old country. Either way, it's hard to see how the information about the father being a Liverpool merchant could be mistaken. |
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Jun-06-25
| | jnpope: <The Martínez del Río Family>, David W. Walker, Austin TX, 1986, p78:
"Thomas Worrall first came to the family's attention in 1839 when, as a representative for the London debt bondholders, he was involved in a mission to renegotiate Mexico's debt to Great Britain. The Martínez del Ríos expected that he might be named the British minister to Mexico in 1846. They were mistaken, but even without official status Worrall preserved his reputation as a fixer—a person with special influence in the Foreign Office. In 1856 Martínez del Río Hermanos commissioned him as a special agent to plead its cause directly to Lord Clarendon, the minister for foreign relations. Although effective in London, Worral's (sic) talents were misplaced in Mexico. He was expelled from the country when he refused to pay the Forced Contributions of May 1859."
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Jun-06-25
| | jnpope: New Orleans <Daily Delta>, 1858.11.13, p1:
"We hear that a new and grave question has arisen with the British Legation, which may possibly lead to the suspension of diplomatic relations. In spite of the most energetic protests on the part of Mr. Otway, a British subject, Mr. Thomas Worrall, a gentleman well known in Mexico, highly connected, and who is the chief manager and director of the Mexican and Pacific Railroad Company, has been sent away at twelve hours' notice, in consequence of refusing to pay an arbitrary forced loan levied on him, and we hear that he goes home by this packet, to lay his wrongs before the British Government, back by the representations of Mr. Otway, and supported by the good wishes of the whole foreign community." |
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Jun-07-25
| | jnpope: <How so? >
Well, it was predicated upon that Family Tree being somewhat accurate. At this point we are left with him being born in 1805 and not 1807. His middle name was Hollaway/Holloway and at some point and was changed to Herbert for some reason, he wasn't working for the British government (at least through 1858; no idea if he was working for the Crown upon his return in 1862), and he worked with the Mexican and Pacific Railroad Company. <The <Chess Monthly> of January 1859, p.27, in a brief chronology of Morphy's life says the Worrall match occurred in May 1858.Suggests all of their odds games should be dated May 1858, but how sure can we be of that?> Not at all.
New Orleans <Sunday Delta>, 1858.04.18, p1: "We have had a flying visit from Mr. Warrall (sic), who is now on his way to Mexico. He played some fifteen games with Mr. Morphy at the odds of the Q Kt, of which he won seven and lost eight." Then the "forced loan" incident occurs that November and he's back in New Orleans. New Orleans <Sunday Delta>, 1858.11.21, p8, Maurian writes: "Our club has recently been favored with a visit from Mr. Worrall, the distinguished amateur from Mexico, who is en route for England. We have found him the same courteous old gentleman and agreeable chess player. Mr. Worrall's stay in this city was so short that he has had time only for a few hurried contests. With Mr. Hart, one of our best players, he played seven games, each party winning two—three being drawn. We had the pleasure of two games with Mr. Worrall—the first was drawn, and the second we had the good fortune to win." I've added the Worrall-Hart game given in that column.
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| Jun-07-25 | | WilhelmThe2nd: From the <New York Daily Herald>, 1846.07.23, p2: <AFFAIRS IN MEXICO.—The letters that have appeared in the London 'Times' from Mexico, have lately attracted some attention; and it will not, therefore, be uninteresting to be made acquainted with the writer. The correspondent is Mr. Thomas Worrall, a native of Liverpool, England. He is a very intimate friend of Mr. Morphy, the gentleman who has gone to Mexico on a secret mission from England. He is also well known to Mr. Pakenham, lately the British 'Charge d'Affaires', in Mexico; and we think it possible, that Mr. Pakenham may have him pointed out to the proprietors of the 'Times', as a fit and proper person to correspond with them. We believe that Mr. Worrall went to Mexico in 1834, as partner in an English commercial house; but three years afterwards he left it, and commenced business on his own account as bill broker, and agent for the sale of government securities. Hitherto he has done pretty well, and if Santa Anna were restored to power, would be much better. The 'Times' could not have chosen a better representative in Mexico than Mr. Worrall, for he moves in the first circles there, has access to the best sources of information, and possesses great literary, as well as commercial attainments.> |
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Jun-07-25
| | MissScarlett: Worrall going to Mexico in c.1834 fits, albeit loosely, with the 1833 <Globe> notice above: <[In a list of Partnerships Dissolved] Thomas Court and Thomas Holloway Worrall, of Liverpool, and of Rio de Janeiro, merchants and commission agents>.
Thomas Worrall (kibitz #21) |
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| Jun-07-25 | | WilhelmThe2nd: From this register of foreigners in Brazil, it looks like <Thomas Holloway Worrall> arrived there in late 1831 but returned to England in early 1832: https://www.google.com/books/editio... |
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Jun-07-25
| | jnpope: Is there any evidence that he purchased a commission in the British Army, and if so, what rank? I doubt he was ever a soldier who worked his way up the ranks. |
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Jun-07-25
| | MissScarlett: I doubt he was ever in the British army. |
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Jun-07-25
| | jnpope: I don't think he ever served, but the system of purchasing a commission for status reasons still seems to make it plausible. Basically, I'm curious as to why some sources claim he was a British Army officer. If so, when and how? |
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Jun-07-25
| | jnpope: Of course if he ever purchased a commission for the privilege of rank he failed to use it as a status symbol (I've never seen him mentioned with an officer's rank preceding his name). |
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| Jun-07-25 | | WilhelmThe2nd: <j> Are there any contemporary sources that claim he was in the British Army? |
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Jun-07-25
| | jnpope: I haven't found one yet, that's why I'm curious about statements saying he was a "British Army officer". What evidence exists that even suggests such a thing? I don't think he was ever a soldier, so the only avenue that I see for it to even be possible would be the purchase of a military commission. |
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Jun-07-25
| | jnpope: Holding a British military rank may have been beneficial for someone traveling Mexico during the days of Santa Anna or even the US during the Civil War. I just haven't found any supporting evidence for such a claim in Worrall's case. |
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Jun-07-25
| | jnpope: I guess the prudent thing to do would be to run down all the sources noted at EDO to see if I've overlooked something obvious: http://www.edochess.ca/players/p197... |
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Jun-07-25
| | MissScarlett: < WilhelmThe2nd: <MissS> There is a record of a 'T. H. Worrall' on a New York Passenger list in 1838 who was a merchant from England intending to go to Mexico. The age given for him is 23 years.> Worrall seems to have been back and forth to Britain in 1856, 1858 and 1860. Is passenger list data for the 1850s not extensive? |
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Jun-07-25
| | jnpope: I can't imagine there was another chess playing Worrall floating about. The <Hull Packet and East Riding Times>, 1847.05.14, p8, mentions Mr. Worrall being the honorary secretary of the London Chess Club:
<The Seventh Anniversary of the Yorkshire Chess Association was held here, on Wednesday...
Mr. Craven replied, and gave the "Honorary Secretary and Committee of the Hull Chess Club."—Responded to by Mr. J. R. Clarke, and also by Mr. H. Levett, the ex-president, the latter of whom proposed, the "President of the London Chess Club," which was acknoweledged by Mr. Worrall, the honorary secretary of that club.>Passenger list data for multiple decades would prove useful in tracking his travels. |
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Jun-08-25
| | MissScarlett: John Worrell is meant. I thought George Perigal was the long-time honorary secretary of the London CC. I surmise the toast was to both the president and the secretary to which Worrell merely replied. |
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Jun-08-25
| | jnpope: That makes more sense. Although I did find mention of a second chess playing Worrall; "G. Worrall" playing for Hull according to the <Westminster Papers>, 1 August 1875, p66 (when did his chess career start?). <I thought George Perigal was the long-time honorary secretary of the London CC.> That's what I have in my club database.
Do we have any dates on John Worrell? I know he was one of Staunton's seconds/umpires in his match with St. Amant. |
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Jun-08-25
| | jnpope: It also doesn't help matters that T. H. Worrall is sometimes given as Worrell(!); turn-about is fair play I guess. |
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