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CG Librarian
Member since May-07-11 · Last seen Apr-20-15
<"I adjust">

Hi, I'm your friendly Chessgames database librarian. My job is to make the database better by processing correction slips.

I'll be using this forum to ask for help when something needs more research. You can use this forum for the same purpose, to get others' input on possible errors or duplicates.

If you've submitted a correction there's no need to post here about it. I will see the correction slip and it will be fixed as soon as possible. Thanks!

A few notes:

1. As you probably know, there's currently a long backlog of corrections. From now on, new corrections will get priority, while I also chip away at the older ones. If you submit a new slip on something that isn't fixed yet, that will bump it up to the top and it will get fixed faster. Please be judicious about this.

2. Probably due to the backlog, volunteer bio editors have started to put "aka" and a duplicate player link in bios. Please don't do this, just submit a correction slip. Similarly, if there's a problem with a player name (such as first and last name reversed), submit a slip on it rather than putting it in the bio, so it can get changed in the database.

3. We also try to delete kibitzes about errors that would be confusing once the error is fixed, so the more you keep the corrections to the correction slip, the less extra work for me and the faster I can correct the database. Full Member

   CG Librarian has kibitzed 21 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Jun-04-12 CG Librarian chessforum (replies)
CG Librarian: OK, here are a few things I wanted to mention: 1. I got a copy of Chess Personalia (quite a while ago now) :) 2. The reason CG put a hyphen in Spanish double last names was so the database software didn't get confused about what the last name was (for things like the Player ...
   Nov-03-11 European Team Championship (2011) (replies)
CG Librarian: <Slaven MNE> You're right. We also had the wrong Georgiev. I think the error must have gotten propagated from the official site.
   Aug-08-11 World Junior Championships (2011) (replies)
CG Librarian: Here's the situation with incorrect game scores for this tournament: we first received many truncated games, then the correct versions. I've removed all the incorrect duplicate games that affect the leaderboards. If you see more please submit a correction slip on them.
   May-28-11 World Championship Candidates Final (2011) (replies)
CG Librarian: <alexmagnus: Actually if you do the search now you get +9 -5 =27. One Gelfand win from 1990s, present just a week ago, now magically disappeared... Maybe it was attributed to some different players.> Hello, I just saw this. The stats changed because I merged away a ...
   May-08-11 chessforum (replies)
CG Librarian: <Domdaniel: Welcome, o Eager and Bright database administrator person.> Thanks, and hello everyone! My chessforum is now available for correction-related comments. I'm sure I'll also be posting things that need additional research, so check back often.
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 18 OF 18 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: How would you notate 1.Qb4xb5?

click for larger view

1r5k /8/8/1q6/1Q6/8/8/1K3Q1r w - - 0 1

How about the different queen captures here:

click for larger view

1r5k /1Q6/8/1q6/1Q6/8/8/1K3Q1r w - - 0 1

And here:

click for larger view

1r4k1 /1Q6/8/8/1Q2q2Q/8/8/rQ2K2Q w - - 0 1

(SCID actually gets at least one of them wrong in the last example)

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <pgn-extract> has been a program I've relied on when writing UCI routines - as engines tend to speak LAN format, and most PGN uses SAN format.

Interestingly, pgn-extract is still being updated, with this important very recent addition:


21st July 2017: Added --nobadresults to suppress games with inconsistent result indications. Fixed failure to correct terminating result with --fixresulttags. <Added --allownullmoves.>


Trying to write a program which understands PGN SAN input, let alone PGN SAN output is quite a challenge, at least in my experience.

<( SAN = short algebraic
__ LAN = long  algebraic )>

Premium Chessgames Member

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: Are there any TCL/TK programmers out there?

I'm almost ready to unveil my 4.4/4.5 merged/improved version of SCID. There are some improvements which are just hacked in - and I'd really appreciate some review/improvement of the mods.

Here's a list of some of the changes - in reverse order:

1) Gamelist is now a hybrid of 4.4 and 4.5.

- Unlike 4.5, only one gamelist (or gameslist) window is used. Much less confussing.

- The 4.5 sorting features are fully implemented - which is a big improvement, perhaps the best feature of 4.5.

2) PNG piece sets have been introduced.

- Alpha, Eboard, and Leipzig all now look like they should, without speckling, or jagged edges.

- Merida2 has been modified to use pure White.

3) FEN input can be given in the PGN input window, as a convenience.

4) Biographical player pages can now allow direct linking to CG, EDO, and Wiki pages.

5) Rating graphs for historical players, using EDOchess ratings, are available for Z-base players.

6) Photographs for almost all Z-base players are now available. Biographies as well.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: Poor old SCID - semi-orphaned since first Shane left, then Pascal.

The code base left behind isn't being keep coherent - as developers modify it for improvements in one area, while breaking sections of the code in others.

Case in point - the xtab treatment, which is why I stayed with 4.4.

But there's some other revealing glitches.

First of all, tcscid.exe isn't distributed with the binary kits. This is really a very important component of SCID - if only for having a tool used to run SCID by hand for debugging.

In principle, it also allows for TCL scripts to be written for automated processing of DB's in various ways as well.

Well, the source code package can be used to build it - but one has to go find the from some other source than the official sourceforge distribution.

Then there's this - all the documentation for tcscid, which is really fundamental documentation about SCID's underlying code - is written for v3.2.

Now, I've released it in reformatted form with backlinks. But comparing v4.3, v4.4, v4.5 I see that tcscid is a moving target, and lots of changes (both additions and subtractions) have gone undocumented.

It seems that Shane was the last person to keep the documentation synched with the code - even Pascal omitted documenting a number of sc_tree sub-commands.

(In fact, one of the problems I'm having with retrofitting the GamesList window is that the sc_filter command has changed so much between version 4.4 and 4.5 - without explicit being documented.)

I've gone through at least noting the changes, and will release a new version of the documentation soon.

And for the road, one last example.

There was a function - <sc_base ecoStats>, which was supposed to print out ECO opening statistics for games in a db. I couldn't get it to work.

Why not?

Well, I had to muck around with the C++ code in the debugger to find that there was an undocumented option to the open command:

<sc_base open [-readonly] [-fast] <db>>

It turns out that the ECO stats weren't being updated if fast opens were used. One can understand that fast opens might be desirable - for speed and memory usage. Maybe it should even be the default.

In fact, it is the default. Trouble is, there's no <-slow> option. Clearly someone just changed the default without realizing how it might negatively impact tcscid.

Suffice it to say that the z-version will have a <-slow> option.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <Zanzibar< Starting with your queries about games from Round 1 from Osten 1906


<Spielmann–Schlechter: xtra move, 30…Kd7 – Marco notes some columns omitted it. BCM v26 N8 (Aug 1906) G2740 p332/351 (Notes from ‘New Orleans Times’)>

The move in question is <30...Kd7>. Gillam (p.88) translates Marco's entire note, which includes an affirmation that the move was played. As Marco was there (and could have checked with Schlechter in any event), I dee no reason to doubt his statement.


<Perlis–Salwe: extra moves, …22 to 35; BDE and Macro both have xtra vs AH source (PB preferred) 1906-06-07 – Algemeen Handelsblad – p6c4 / BDE 1906-06-25 p16c2>

Newspaper report has Black resiging after W22; Marco adds moves from B22-W25. Gillam also quotes these sources:

T.F. Lawernce - The People (a London Sunday newspaper) Deutsches Wochenschach
Schweizer Schachzeitung
Leopold Hoffer (presumably from The Field)

We need to be careful about assuming that Gillam's sources will have the same version of the game which he uses. One of Hoffer's notes refers to one of the extra moves, so on that basis it seems that the longer version was current at the time.

But that's twice now Marco has given extra moves at the end.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Phony> OK, the fun has begun, will circle around on your comments in a while...

But, for the record, here's a rundown of the 51 R1.1-1.5 games which we presumably both sourced from Marco (you via Gillam, me from Marco directly):

PB/Z ordering...

<<Marshall--Sourin (R1.1) p9/11>

26.Rfd1    vs    26.Rc1 <<>>>

* * *

<<Post--Tanbenhaus (R1.3) p39/41>

10...O-O 11.Bc2 Nxd2 12.Qxd2    vs    10...Nxd2 11.Qxd2 O-O 12.Bc2 <<>>>

* * *

<<Znosko-Borovsky--Perlis (R1.4) p60/62>

34...a5 35.Qf7 Qa3    vs    34...Qa3 Qf7 a5 <<>>>

I've corrected all the obvious Z-errors, so only a few differences now. I'm interested in knowing the details of course.

Should I post my working version of the PGN to the Google drive?


Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <<Marshall--Sourin (R1.1) p9/11>

was mentioned earlier. Gillam's <26.Rfd1> is clearly a typo by Marco's <26.Rc1>,. In the game continuation Black would hang a piece after 26.fRd1.


The other two cases are less clear-cut. Gillam mentions no sources besides Marco, and gives no indication why he transposed moves. Perhaps he found the games in existing databases as is, and just went along in the crowd.

<<Post--Tanbenhaus (R1.3) p39/41>

Gillam: 10...0-0 11.Bc2 Nxd2 12.Qxd2
Marco: 10...Nxd2 11.Qxd2 0-0 12.Bc2

<CG. follows Gillam.

Hard to say. Two indications that Marco is more likely:

1) Gillam's 10...O-O is by far the more common move

2) After 10...O-O 11.Bc2 Black has three moves more common and with better results than 11...Nxd2.

<<Znosko-Borovsky--Perlis (R1.4) p60/62>

Gillam: 34...a5 35.Qf7 Qa3
Marco: 34...Qa3 35.Qf7 a5

Very slight indication for Marco's version: after 34...Qa3, 35.Qf7 is indicated to, among things, protect the a-pawn. White has a wider choice of moves after 34...a5, and after 35.Qf7 Black might not consider 35...Qa3 as it doesn't attack the a-pawn.

I'm developing a Marco bias. Got to watch that.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Phony> a Marco bias isn't necessarily such a bad bias, although he does have a tendency to sometimes add extra moves at the end of the game to play out obvious finishes... or so I suspect.

As for <Fahrni--Duras>, I'm of the opinion that the white rook never belongs on f1 after moving off it (39.Rf1 ... huh?!)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Round 2 QUestions

<Swiderski–Spielmann: Tpos 3,4 (PB bad) 1906-06-09 Algemeen Handelsblad p6c4 – 1906-06-08 De Telegraaf p2c1 –>

I think Gillam (and <CG>) have s this wrong. Besides your sources, ACB v3 No9 p192 also has the 3...Nc6/ 4...Nf6 move order. Gillam and <CG> seem to be the only ones with 3...Nf6 and 4...Nc6.

<CG> having 3...Nf6 / 4...Nc6 makes me wonder if it's an error in databases in general. That might be where Gillam got it too. It could also be from Tarrasch, whom Gillam mentions as a source for his notes (though without any specific citation.)

By the way, this kibitz cites a source which has White resigning after move 20!

Swiderski vs Spielmann, 1906 (kibitz #3)

So this was not a case when only Marco gave extra moves.


Wolf–Suechting: xtra moves, at move 30 + end (…Bxa3 cxd5+) (PB bad?) DSZ v61 N11 (Nov 1906) G-7578 p326/336

We discussed this in tje Bistro.

Biographer Bistro (kibitz #18146)

The move <30.Qc6 Rd6> definitely belongs in the score. Extra moves at the end of agame are normally analysis of the final position. There seems not reason to add an extra move in the middle of game.

Janowski's note was probably based on the shorter version found in Deutsche Schachzeitung. Rmember, the marco book didn't come out until well into 1907.

Salwe–Mieses: xtra moves at end, …43 to 46, clearly a draw, though Marco agrees with PB. (PB bad?) 1906-06-12 De Telegraaf p2c5 –

Once again it's Marco with the longer version. I would feel much better about trusting him if it didn't happen every time.

This is the closest case yet, since th extra moves are of the type an annotator would include in a note. . But I would still include them.

This may be wrong, but I'd like to stick with Marco's versions until he is proven guilty. Remember, he is working with the co-operation of the Tournament Committee, probably meaning he has access to their official record, and is working at a relatively leisurely pace (it took almost a year to produce this book). The newspapers are relying on hastily assembled press releases and reports, and have time and space crunches of their own.

But we still need to keep a critical eye open every time tis happens.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <zanzibar> Round 3 questions

<1906.06.07 A00 0 (R3 (1.3.3)) 0-1 Post--Taubenhaus (Marco G-47 p39/41)>

Where I think there's a tpos 10-12 - Macro having:

<10...Nxd2 11.Qxd2 O-O 12.Bc2>

Black would likely have a ...Nxf7 option somewhere in there, otherwise.>

This looks like the same sort of case as Swiderski vs Spielmann, 1906. In that game Marco has 3...Nc6 and 4...Nf6, GIllam (who used Marco as a source of ntoes) had 3...Nf6 and 4...Nc6.

In PostA E Post vs Taubenhaus, 1906, we have these move orders:

Marco: 10...Nxd2 11.Qxd2 0-0 12.Bc2
Gillam: 10...O-O 11.B2 Nxd2 12.Qxd2

In Swiderski-Spielmann we have good contemporary evidence that Mrco's order of moves is correct. There is not the same evidence in Post-Taubenhaus/

In both cases, Gillam's choice is by far the most popular move oderder today, but relatively less popular in 1906. I think it possible that, instead of a contemporary source, he used a databases which included games in which the OOM had been tweaked to fit a standard sequence.

I've changed to Marco's OOM in both cases.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Phony> I just published my tracking of the genesis of Macro's book, so I'll have to circle back on the game review tomorrow.

Thanks for the updates - I'll report back soon...

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: Oh, I guess I can comment my bias/approach - Gillam isn't an issuing authority in comparison to Marco, so unless he cites a difference source to compare against, then Marco takes precedence.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Giving Marco preference definitely agrees with my observations.

You mentioned something earlier about score corrections in either textual or PGN form. PGN would probably be easier for me to work with, but do but whatever is easier for you


Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Phony> ah right, I should have posted this a while ago (though I think by now most of the silly transcription mistakes have been fixed - thanks to comparing against your copy!):

BTW- you can update your files on the Google drive. If you drop in a new version with the same name Google will just update it in place (while saving/stacking the old versions).


Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <zanzibar> Lost power due to ice storm, so I'm at my former workplace right now. Can't do any chess work, though,
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: Ice storms in mid-April?!

We had snow flurries here yesterday...

It's so depressing I can't do any (useful) work, either. Thank goodness for CG!


Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Power back, but Internet access still erratic.

Just to clarify: the file is the result of your searches in contemporary sources?

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Phony> yes, all the games were transcribed by me from the Source given for each game.

It's independent of your games, except for the ϵ²-checking to eliminate obvious transcription mistakes/typos.

If it's more convenient for you I can reprocess the games to put the Source tag as an readable ending comment in the PGN movelist (an ideal I'm considering doing anyways).

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Phony> does Gillam have photographs/bios of all the players?

Is there anyway to get the photos?

(And does he give their sources?)

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: Oh, and did you see this any mention of Fahrni's artistic talents?

Doll (kibitz #1631)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Gillam provides brief bios for all of the players, ranging from a couple of sentences for Swiderski to 2½ pages for Reggio. THe more prominents players get around a page, and most of the others several short paragraphs.

He includes thumbnail portraits of everybody except Sournin, but no indication of sources. I haven't looked carefully, but I guess they are publicly available rather than from a special collection of some sort. For example, here's the Teichman shot he uses:

And this, of course, is not the original source.

I have no way of scanning or transmitting these.

As for the art work, it make me wish Fahrni had been Irish. Then I could have described it as Fahrni Blarney.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: The "Source" tag is not displaying in m version of ChessBzse. I tried copying the notation to a Notepad (which sometimes works with hidden notes), but not here.

I'm only seeing about thirty items for checking (some of which we've discussed already), so maybe I can do without.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <Phony> just open the original download file with Notepad - the Source tags will be there.

As for <Fahrni>, isn't there a little bit of Irish in all of us? (At least here in Boston there is).

Don't be too hard on him though - he was institutionalized several times in his life, and I believe some of his art was done during these times as therapy. Not 100% sure though...

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Well, I'm still not sure how I did it, but I managed to open the file in Notepad. Both of the versions will come in handy.

I just made up the Fahrni remark for the pun, not having read any of his unfortunate history.

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