< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 738 OF 738 ·
|Aug-31-14|| ||OhioChessFan: Chessgames Editor Guide
<This is a tedius but rewarding project.>
I know my nitpicking is tedious, but that's a pretty ironic error.
|Aug-31-14|| ||chessgames.com: Haha, thanks Ohio.|
|Aug-31-14|| ||Penguincw: Hi <cg>. Would it be possible to create a personalized dancing rook for Caruana? I believe there's one for Carlsen, but since Caruana has already won 5 times at the Sinquefield Cup, would it be possible to make one for him (doesn't have to be used this tournament)?|
|Aug-31-14|| ||Annie K.: Can't let <Ohio> outpedant me, can I? ;p|
On the same page (Chessgames Editor Guide) -
<To remedy this daunting problem, the tireless efforts of our Chessgames Editors sort matters out using a powerful three-step process that we call "Tournment Induction":>
- maybe calling it "Tournament Induction" would be better...
BTW, look for a mail too. :)
|Aug-31-14|| ||Penguincw: Sorry for this, but I'd like to get involved too.
< Please describe you skills and resources as a chess historian, database expert, etc. >
Unfortunately, me no good enough (j/k). :)
|Aug-31-14|| ||chessgames.com: Thanks, it's only appropriate that the CG Editors end up going over the Chessgames Editor Guide with a fine tooth comb.|
|Aug-31-14|| ||chessgames.com: About the Caruana rook:
The reason why some players have rooks while most don't is that traditionally we have only made them for WCC and candidates events.
However we do make exceptions, and we've caught Caruana fever here just like the rest of you, so stay tuned.
|Aug-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <chessgames> & <switch> |
So FIDE does have the correct game, on the individual boards.
It's still not clear to me if the zip file was ever correct - since I'm still unsure if <CG> didn't get the correct version from <TWIC>.
Do you know?
As I've said before, my experience is that FIDE doesn't update the zip files once published. (I could be wrong).
* * * * *
A little more about <TWIC> vs <FIDE> for <Tromso Women olm 2014>.
It has some errors. Let's start with some errors that <CG> also has, concerning the FIDE id of these two players:
<FIDE missing names (not found in TWIC):
Ramirez M. Eugenia (3301680 vs Maria Eugenia Ramirez 3301133)
Sotomayor Villatoro, Silvi (7301057 vs Silvia Sotomayor 7300611)
I've left notes on <CG> for these players to try to help sort this out.
Next, ignoring the missing games that involve these two players, there is one game found on <TWIC> not on <FIDE>:
<2014.08.02 (R1.65) 1-0 Nikolovska, Dragana -- Winfred Thitu (C62) 39>
This is clearly just a mistake, as both Nikolovska and Thitu already have Round 1 games. (<CG> doesn't have this one).
There are also two <FIDE> games missing from <TWIC>:
<FIDE missing games (not found in TWIC):
2014.08.02 (R1.21) 1-0 Nikolovska, Dragana -- Maryam (C62) 39
2014.08.09 (R7.7) = Paloma, Gladys Anne -- Itangishaka Aurore (A00) 0>
The first game is on <CG>, but not the 2nd, since it's a stub game. I checked that individual game on chess24, and the moves were missing there as well.
And to finish the comparison, there are many <FIDE> games with a trivial extra move at the end, typically an illegal king move. <CG> and <TWIC> both eliminate these spurious moves.
|Sep-01-14|| ||OhioChessFan: <(often, but not always the owner of the collection) >|
Needs a comma after "always".
< there is always a demand up update tournament information >
|Sep-01-14|| ||zanzibar: One last question regarding <TWIC>'s version of <Tromso Women olm 2014>...|
Both <CG> and <TWIC> have different results from <FIDE>'s download (and their online individual version of these games):
C M Sihite vs Darlin Rocio Villar Acevedo, 2014 (CG 1-0 / FIDE 0-1)
P Zengeni vs A M Franco Valencia, 2014 (CG 0-1 / FIDE 1-0)
K Arakhamia-Grant vs S Kurbonboeva, 2014 (CG = / TWIC 1-0 / FIDE = )
Moletsane Maphuthi vs M Uwinkesha, 2014 (CG 1-0 / FIDE 0-1)
Dewi Ardhiani Anastasia Citra vs L Javakhishvili, 2014 (CG 0-1 / FIDE =)
I believe at least one of them has a final position of checkmate where FIDE result is wrong. And except where noted, <TWIC> agrees with <CG> for these games.
* * * * *
Now there are a couple of points.
1) The most important - what is the source of the different result?
As <chessgames> said, <CG> never uses an engine eval.
Of course, a final position of checkmate needs only common sense to determine the correct result. But what about all the other games?
I ran an engine, and found <TWIC> result agrees with the eval. It was always (or almost always) the higher rated player with the winning position.
So I would like to use the <CG> result. But where did it come from? <TWIC>?
And if so, then where did <TWIC> get the different result? From the eval? Where - I really would like to know.
Since, for all other purposes, <FIDE> (via chess24), seems to be the issuing authority - to change its results is something not done blithely.
And if <FIDE> is wrong, how can we make it right?
|Sep-02-14|| ||MarkFinan: I would never betray your confidence by revealing paragraphs from private emails we've shared, about other members on a public chess site. We've spoke about this before. Anyways, I logged in late last night and he's had *another* meltdown! |
Did you say the following about me?
<KKDEREK: The coward criminal delete his own posts. Afraid of black list..
A cookie to who finds out who sent me this email..
<"(...)I told you to ignore him and don't interact with him, and if he persisted I would put him on probation. And I did.
(...) I agree, he seems to be a nut obsessed with you. I agree, he "baits" you. And yet, you take the bait. (...)">
Maybe I should remind you *privately* the things you've said about him? I wouldn't betray your confidence but we both know what I mean. So now seeing as kkderek as made this a public issue (What did I tell you about him?) I think it's only fair you answer me publicly.
Did you or did you not say those things about me?
|Sep-02-14|| ||SugarDom: What "nut"? I say that was too soft a description of you. CG is too kind. That's even a compliment compared to the real you...|
|Sep-02-14|| ||MarkFinan: No comment. 😄|
|Sep-02-14|| ||Pulo y Gata: <MarkFinan> Spill the cg beans, why doncha?!|
|Sep-02-14|| ||chessgames.com: Zanzibar:
<1) The most important - what is the source of the different result? ... where did it come from? <TWIC>?>
Since we were downloading Olympiad games straight from TWIC, yes, the answer is TWIC.
<And if so, then where did <TWIC> get the different result? From the eval? Where - I really would like to know.>
I'm not sure—that's part of Crowther's chess magic. I seriously doubt Crowther would trust engine evals to modify game results; that's a very bad practice and a good chess archivist would never do such a thing.
Perhaps there is a results table published somewhere, at least during the tournament, which was in some ways more reliable than the PGN itself, and when discrepancies arose he reconciles them that way? I'm just speculating.
<And if <FIDE> is wrong, how can we make it right?>
That's a tall order. It's entirely possibly they will archive incorrect zip files indefinitely now. To my knowledge they have no equivalent of a "correction slip". This emphasizes the importance of outlets such as Chessgames and TWIC.
|Sep-02-14|| ||chessgames.com: <MarkFinan> All emails to and from Chessgames are regarded as confidential unless explicitly stated otherwise. To that end, I have no comment on the quoted passages.|
|Sep-02-14|| ||zanzibar: <chessgames>
<I'm not sure—that's part of Crowther's chess magic. I seriously doubt Crowther would trust engine evals to modify game results; that's a very bad practice and a good chess archivist would never do such a thing.>
That's why I'm pressing this issue a little. <CG> in effect did change the <FIDE> results, and the more explicit the lineage to <TWIC> the better, I think.
(Actually, I would even suggest a note in the tournament page stating this reliance on correcting the results)
Now it would be nice to move up the chain to <TWIC> in order to know what Mark is doing.
Having an independent results table is important for tournament organizers - and is very likely to be kept correct by the participants. But when a result table and a score disagree you still would want an eval to back up the change won't you?
As I've said, the checkmate final positions do allow a couple of these to be corrected immediately, ad hoc.
* * * * *
As far as I can tell, there's really only <chess-results.com> who presents the results in a form that could be used for realistically correcting / double checking results.
Even that is a huge task. I really am curious how these discrepancies were caught.
I found them by comparing PGN files, a difficult task, but one that could be automated. We are talking about thousands of games organized by hundreds of teams.
~2928 games / ~668 players / 136 teams
Anybody who can hand-scan all that data and pick out result mismatches is super-human.
* * * * *
<It's entirely possibly they [i.e. FIDE] will archive incorrect zip files indefinitely now. To my knowledge they have no equivalent of a "correction slip". This emphasizes the importance of outlets such as Chessgames and TWIC.>
And even <TWIC> doesn't have an obvious <correction slip> process.
That leaves <CG>.
(And maybe ChessTempo - though I rarely see discussion of game correction there, but Richard does some amazing things, e.g. finding rare games etc, and he does have a <correction slip> process).
|Sep-02-14|| ||Annie K.: <zanzibar> you are effectively asking <cg> to face Mark of <TWIC> with your questions. Why not just ask him yourself?|
|Sep-02-14|| ||zanzibar: <Annie K> I suppose I could.|
But I don't know him, and I'm not aware he takes public comments.
Well, now that I look I see he does have a public email at the bottom of the page:
mdcrowth * btinternet.com
I could "cold-call" him, but if <chessgames> already has a professional relationship in place that might be easier.
I like first coming here to post since it's a public forum. Plus I was still trying to determine exactly how <CG> and <TWIC> were working together.
Actually, I still am.
There's this one game discrepancy I don't understand:
K Arakhamia-Grant vs S Kurbonboeva, 2014
It has <FIDE>/<CG> result 1/2-1/2, but <TWIC> gives as 1-0.
So does chess-results.com.
Which leads me to ask how did this happen if <CG> is tracking <TWIC>?
|Sep-02-14|| ||zanzibar: I was also wondering about the correspondence between <chess24.com> and <chess-results.com>.|
The latter is indeed the best source of organized information about the Olympiad - allowing examination by team etc.
It proved invaluable as I was writing my program. And is essential for knowing about the special teams, byes, etc.
I was surprised that <chess24>, the "official" site, didn't allow me to see what players comprised each team.
But then I found this on <chess24.com>:
<Last chance to correct Olympiad teams
1. All information regarding teams participating in the Olympiad, their players and captains has been published at the following links:
Those reference links point to <chess-results.com>!
|Sep-02-14|| ||SwitchingQuylthulg: <zanzibar> The Olympiad organisers used a program called "Swiss-Manager" to manage the results, pairings etc. Swiss-Manager is affiliated with Chess-Results and can be used to automatically upload all relevant information to that site. |
Team line-ups were in fact available at chess24 (https://chess24.com/en/olympiad2014...; https://chess24.com/en/olympiad2014...), but unlike the same lists at Chess-Results, those pages had to be updated manually and were therefore much slower to pick up on changes. It's not surprising that Chess-Results would have the most accurate and up-to-date data.
|Sep-02-14|| ||zanzibar: Thanks <Switch>. I was just about to post that program link|
I think my version of Firefox crashed out on the official site - switching over to Chrome I do see all those links working for me.
It would still be nice to just be able to download all that info in some kind of format, like on chess-results.
Also chess-results shows the new IM/GM's (preliminary of course):
Swiss-Manager + Chess-Results look like a very good combination.
* * * * *
My program isn't bad, but my heuristic for determining the board order for a team (just from the PGN) failed for those teams lacking rated players.
I do wonder how Swiss-Manager handled the rather complicated tie-break system used. I was hoping to avoid doing that, but SCID is too limited to properly handle my team stub games for the final team crosstable.
Other than that it's nice being able to get a team immediately from the command line, and a team-pairing + results for a given round as well.
The chess-result HTML interface is good, but this stuff is so big it takes awhile to click your way to the info you might want. Sometimes it nice to just call it up with a simple function call in a python script.
|Sep-02-14|| ||Shams: Thanks for the custom art!|
|Sep-02-14|| ||chessgames.com: <Thanks for the custom art!> You're welcome, but credit for this one goes to Annie K. who whipped it up in a pinch :-)|
|Sep-02-14|| ||hoodrobin: <chessgames.com> Who are the players on top of your twitter homepage please? Is it possible/practical to browse your photo collection? It could be a great idea for CG members imo. Thanks.|
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