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>> Click here to see's game collections. Full Member has kibitzed 10951 times to chessgames   [more...]
   May-30-15 chessforum <<chessgames> Do you know/use python much?> I'm actually learning it lately but haven't used it for anything serious. <Would you be interested in me making a blog post showing the code I used for this? ... > Sure.
   May-30-15 Biographer Bistro (replies) Is this all the same player? Foerder H Foerder Heinz Foerder
   May-28-15 Kibitzer's Café (replies) <Schwartz> I'm sorry, but using diagrams for that purpose is not condoned on the Kibitzer's Café. It just creates too much clutter. If you can find somebody willing to do that on their Chessforum then it's perfectly acceptable.
   May-26-15 Nakamura vs Jakovenko, 2015 (replies) <Karposian: I would prefer <CG> provided live coverage of the Nakamura-Jakovenko game instead, given it is a game of vital importance for both players.> You are right; we hadn't realized that two leading players were facing off in the final round. Game starts at ...
   May-19-15 Rubinstein vs Schlechter, 1912 (replies) <offramp: The pun would be slightly better if the alternative name of Akiva had been used.> That's a great point. We're not above changing the pun after the fact. (And yes, this one was chosen for the game itself and then struggled to come up with a pun.)
   May-15-15 FIDE Grand Prix Khanty-Mansiysk (2015) (replies) And don't forget to tune in at 6:00am USA/Eastern for Caruana vs Tomashevsky, 2015 . Everybody's invited.
   May-09-15 Chessgames Bookie chessforum (replies) Announcement: Payday is scheduled for Tuesday, May 19. All players will receive a 1000 chessbuck bonus on that day.
   May-04-15 Italian Teams (2015) (replies) That was a typo, our apologies. The winning team was Obiettivo Risarcimento Padova (Hikaru Nakamura, Maxime Vachier-Lagrave Maxime, Etienne Bacrot, et al).
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 824 OF 824 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: <> How difficult would it be, to implement these:

(Or do you think it's something nice to have)

Say I am looking at this page: Tan Zhongyi

And I see that she played in the 2009 Chinese Championship, I can either go to a game from that tournament, then click on the tournament link, or can the "Event" be linked directly to the tournament page?

(Provided that there is a page for that tournament, and it's not just a few entry from some local weekend Swiss or some GM Simul, that we only have one game in the database)

Can the "Year" link, such that if clicked on, will give you all the games from that year of that player? Instead of going to the home page and enter all the criteria then search?


Premium Chessgames Member <can the "Event" be linked directly to the tournament page?>

Sure it can, and that's a really good idea. ECO codes link to their appropriate pages (pages which almost never get used), so why shouldn't the tournament link go to the tournament pages?

<Can the "Year" link, such that if clicked on, will give you all the games from that year of that player?> Thats a little stickier of an issue. People don't always search just on a player, it might be "that player wins", or "that player against the King's Indian", in which case what clicking on the year should produce is a little less clear. Besides, if you are looking at the chronological list, you can see those games from that year right in front of you.

But anyhow, the linking to tournaments is a fine idea, especially now that we have so many historical tournaments.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: <Thats a little stickier of an issue. People don't always search just on a player, it might be "that player wins", or "that player against the King's Indian", in which case what clicking on the year should produce is a little less clear.>

Hmmm, it might just repeat the previous search, with the year specification added to whatever the search criteria were.

I like these ideas. :)

Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: Well, if <Annie K.> likes them, then I don't like them! =)

Gonna send you another audio/name, Tan Zhongyi, probably next week.

Premium Chessgames Member <zanzibar>: Yes the Bistro is not intended for extremely technical discussions, but bugs were being discussed, and that gets into data issues.

<For instance, are you intending to write your own filter for finding unnormalized tournaments on <CG>?> I already have. It doesn't change any data, it's just pointing out discrepancies.

<I know you intend to search out those with multiple <Event> tags, but what about multiple <Site> tags, or <EventDate> tags?> I wrote one to look for multiple Site tags ages ago. It helps with tournaments that have live games, where a few of the PGNs have clock-times stuffed in the site tag. That one can change data, when it sees "0:12:33-0:34:33" as a site tag, it will have the smarts to examine other games in the tournament and figure out where it was really played.

<BTW- the <Site> tags will almost certainly have to be brought back up on the Bistro. I realize biographers like to know the exact location for a given game, but that's not what the PGN standard says the <Site> location is for.>

Is it really that clear? Consider as a simple example Morelia-Linares (2008), took place in two cities thousands of miles apart. You would prefer the site tags to all read the same, something like this:

[Event "Morelia-Linares"]
[Site "Morelia/Linares MEX/ESP"]

Others would like to see the site tag reflect where the game actually was played, so while one may read

[Event "Morelia-Linares"]
[Site "Morelia MEX"]

another would read

[Event "Morelia-Linares"]
[Site "Linares ESP"]

The are pros and cons to both methods, but the 2nd method has the nice advantage of telling you where the game was actually played. It also avoids ridiculously long lists of locations for events that span many cities. (How would the combined-site method work with the Bundesliga games?)

Does the PGN specification actually explain what to do in circumstances like that? If I recall it's rather ambiguous about how to employ those fields.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: <WannaBe> heh! :p

<Gonna send you another audio/name, Tan Zhongyi, probably next week.>

Way cool, but who are you talking to, me or <cg>? ;s

Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: <Annie K.> You. =)
Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: Great! :D Um, just the one name, then? ;)
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: <Annie K.> For now, but if I threaten to cut off my co-worker's internet, I may get every single Chinese names taken care of.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: Well, I am sure you will do the right thing! :)
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: <Annie K.> The hardest part, is to get their names written in Chinese, so we know what the heck we are pronouncing and what accent to place on the word.

Example: her page does not have the name written (in Chinese), I checked ChessBomb & Chess-DB, they all have it listed as English name.

So, until I can find a place that have her name written in Chinese (maybe a .cn site) even facebook page doesn't have her name in Chinese:

Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: There's the list I already prepared for you a while back... ;)

Ding Liren 丁立人
Ding Yixin 丁亦昕
Gu Xiaobing 谷笑冰
Huang Qian 黄茜
Ju Wenjun 居文君
Li Chao 李超
Li Shilong 李師龍
Liang Chong 梁充
Liang Jinrong 梁金荣
Lu Shanglei 卢尚磊
Ni Hua 倪華
Peng Xiaomin 彭小民
Shen Yang 沈陽
Tan Zhongyi 谭中怡
Wang Rui 王锐
Wang Yue 王玥
Wang Zili 汪子力
Wen Yang 温阳
Wu Shaobin 吴少斌
Wu Wenjin 吴文瑾
Xie Jun 謝軍
Xiu Deshun 修德顺
Xu Jun 徐俊
Xu Yuhua 許昱華
Ye Jiangchuan 葉江川
Ye Rongguang 葉榮光
Yu Shaoteng 餘少騰
Yu Yangyi 余泱漪
Zhang Pengxiang 張鵬翔
Zhang Zhong 章鍾
Zhao Jun 趙駿
Zhao Xue 赵雪
Zhou Jianchao 周健超
Zhou Weiqi 周唯奇
Zhu Chen 諸宸

(we already have Yu Yangyi...) :)

Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: <Annie K.> I made a note of it.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: Thanks! Anything you can do will be great. :)
May-29-15  zanzibar: Yes, a certain level of exposure to the details is very healthy for the Biographer, even the non-programming variety. But once pinned down perhaps we best discuss the details here.

On the other hand, the multiple site issue, which seems up-to-bat, is another good topic for the Bistro.

But let's try to set the table here.

I'm just another guy with an opinion about what the best convention is. You introduced a couple of alternatives.

But I am the champion of renormalization here on <CG>, and all I ask is that the <Event> tag has only one value for all games in a tournament.

I realize the standard is lacking, this is the best example - but the PGN standard is the standard. Break it and there begins the road to perdition.

As for the convention to adopt for your example:

One can't really go too far astray following TWIC:

<[Site "Morelia/Linares MEX/ESP"]>

or even Wikipedia:

<Morelia/Linares (MEX/ESP)>

My preference would be for this

<Morelia Mex / Linares ESP>

but that's just me. (I'm not shy about opinions).

As for embedding the actual site in the PGN, I'm all for it. Since there no convention that I know of, <CG> can establish one.

E.g. <[GameSite "Linares FRA"]> or

<[GameSite "Morelia MEX"]>

One could also embed the info in the Round tag, though the PGN seems to indicate only ordinals, or compound ordinals should be used.

But, because compound ordinals, hyphens or '?' is allowed by the standard, the two chess database programs I use (SCID and ChessBase Light) are very tolerant.

Of course, a comment could always be injected into the PGN.

Etc, etc, etc.

Just so long as the tournament is normalized. (Am I repeating myself?)

So, using the Site tag as one would intuitively expect seems to be the only non-option! Sad, but true.

The original standard is lacking in specifying multiple sites, but all the updated versions correspond to the advice offered here: (See <Site Names>)

It's mentioned in other places as well, but I'm having trouble finding the theory.

So let's look at the pratice.

<Fritz 12>, which is really a <ChessBase> variant:

<[Site "Linaires/Morelia"]>

Brevity is the soul of wit.


<[Site "Morelia/Linares MEX/ESP"]>


<[Site "Morelia/Linares MEX/ESP"]>

OK, that's enough for now. The pattern is clear enough.

(Of course, I've neglected to show you counter-examples like this...

since I haven't talked to Bob yet! (Just kidding))

On the other hand, I finally found the "official" <ChessBase>

<[Site "Morelia/Linares MEX/ESP"]>

(PGN download at the bottom)

And for a different vantage point:

May-29-15  zanzibar: As for the <Bundesliga> tournaments, the <Site> tag should encompass all the locations, or some abstraction corresponding to the locations.

So, either <Bundesliga> itself, or simply <Various, GER> would do.

Again, the individual games could still be marked with other tags, or comment, for the actual game location.

May-29-15  zanzibar: The Chinese names could easily be another Bistro issue.

My opinion is to follow FIDE's convention.

The reasons:

1) It's FIDE, and it can't hurt to abide by FIDE, can it?

2) Presumably the player him/herself has indicated their preference for their name.

Some players definitely use the Western convention, others don't. So a universal rule does apply here.

(This is also true for some Spanish names, in particular, see:

Julio Argentino Kaplan Pera)

BTW- I think it's great to see a player's name given in their native script.

So, while I think ASCII is best for PGN tags still, I also believe the player's <CG> bio should strive to give the full name in the player's language as well.

UTF-8 is getting very common for browsers, and it's only a few harmless non-displaying characters for older systems.

I think it would be helpful for doing searches for biographical info if the proper spelling of the name were readily available as well. Russian Cyrillic comes to mind.

Wiki is already doing this.

May-29-15  zanzibar: <RE: Site tag for multiple sites>

Some old discussion of this tag:

Biographer Bistro (kibitz #2066)

The convention for Correspondence Chess is to use <corr>, although I also like adding the governing affiliation sponsoring the tournament, when appropriate.

May-30-15  zanzibar: <chessgames> Do you know/use python much?

Would you be interested in me making a blog post showing the code I used for this?

Actually you probably already wrote your own, or have some ideas in mind. If so, it might be interesting to compare notes.

* * * * *

I have another idea/request for forum comments.

Lately, I find myself posting numbers for tid, gid, pid, cid, etc.

It would be nice to have a shortcut to turn them into proper hyperlinks, when desired.

Right now, doing the http prefixing is a little tedious and redundant.

So, might the following be possible?

@t#### -> tournament link

@c#### -> collection link

@g#### -> game link

@p#### -> player link

A possibility? Sure would be helpful.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: <zanzibar: <BTW- I think it's great to see a player's name given in their native script.

So, while I think ASCII is best for PGN tags still, I also believe the player's <CG> bio should strive to give the full name in the player's language as well.

UTF-8 is getting very common for browsers, and it's only a few harmless non-displaying characters for older systems.>>

I agree. :)

People are always curious about this sort of thing - plus, it might bring more of an international variety of visitors here, if non-Latin-alphabet searches started showing Chessgames results as well.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: Oh, here's some more Chinese names, for <WannaBe> and/or any biographer who wants to add them to player pages:

Ruan Lufei 阮露斐
Liu Wenzhe 刘文哲
Guo Qi 郭琦
Ma Qun 马群
Yu Ruiyuan 余瑞源

*note, it may be a good idea to consult <WannaBe> first, there may be more than one type of Chinese script in these lists. ;s

Premium Chessgames Member About the idea of making a convention like this:

@t#### -> tournament link

@c#### -> collection link

@g#### -> game link

@p#### -> player link

Something like that could be worked out, although I'm not sure how many people would use it. I know I would use it.

Premium Chessgames Member About making all of the Site tags of tournaments identical, there are a few things to take into consideration.

First let's consult the PGN specs to see if it offers any guidance:

< The Site tag

The Site tag value should include city and region names along with a standard name for the country. The use of the IOC (International Olympic Committee) three letter names is suggested for those countries where such codes are available. If the site of the event is unknown, a single question mark should appear as the tag value. A comma may be used to separate a city from a region. No comma is needed to separate a city or region from the IOC country code. A later section of this document gives a list of three letter nation codes along with a few additions for "locations" not covered by the IOC.


[Site "New York City, NY USA"]

[Site "St. Petersburg RUS"]

[Site "Riga LAT"]>


That doesn't really help. It discusses "the site of an event" as if to imply that for every event, there is one (and only one) site. Multiple sites for the same event is not discussed. I don't believe that's because the author wanted databases to create a one-to-one correspondence between the Event and the Site, I think it's because he honestly didn't consider this nuance very deeply.

Another thing to consider is how this change will interface with existing PGN software. I think this might the strong point of the suggestion. I can imagine some software getting confused when you have identical Site tags and multiple locations. After all, if the Event said only "It" (international) and the Site tags were different, you would naturally assume they were from different events. And so the same software would not see "Bundesliga Hambug" the same as "Bundesliga Munich", even though they really are the same event.

Another consideration is, what is the norm? What does Chessbase do? What does NIC do? I'm not against doing things different from everybody else, but we should have a good reason for it.

Finally, what do we really want? What is better? Let's take a look at a typical multi-site event like Bundesliga (2013/14) and pluck two headers at random:

[Event "Bundesliga"]
[Site "Munich GER"]
[Date "2013.10.13"]


[Event "Bundesliga"]
[Site "Hamburg GER"]
[Date "2014.02.22"]

Zanzibar's suggestion would be to change this to read

[Event "Bundesliga"]
[Site "Various GER"]
[Date "2013.10.13"]

. . .

[GameSite "Munich GER"]



[Event "Bundesliga"]
[Site "Various GER"]
[Date "2014.02.22"]

. . .

[GameSite "Hamburg GER"]

I'm agnostic that the second form is better. For starters we have the problem that this "GameSite" tag is not an official tag, and no PGN reader on earth will do anything with it. If you load such PGN into software like Chessbase it will read "Various GER" and not "Hamburg GER". Importing and exporting PGN often strips nonstandard tags, so there is a danger of data-loss. What exactly is the advantage, and is it a big enough advantage to warrant this?

Premium Chessgames Member While we're discussing the PGN spec ( let's take a look at the less-technical portion of the Character codes section:

<4.1: Character codes

Because some PGN users' environments may not support presentation of non-ASCII characters, PGN game authors should refrain from using such characters in critical commentary or string values in game data that may be referenced in such environments. PGN software authors should have their programs handle such environments by displaying a question mark ("?") for non-ASCII character codes. This is an important point because there are many computing systems that can display eight bit character data, but the display graphics may differ among machines and operating systems from different manufacturers.>

The reason why this has come to my attention is that I've noticed some of the historical tournaments have used non-ASCII characters such as Grünfeld - Tartakower (1922).

The problem comes in that now we've created PGN that contains the ü character. There is no problem having the database contain a non-Western character, but now the tag [Event "Grünfeld - Tartakower"] will show up on some PGN readers as "Gr?nfeld - Tartakower."

I normally adhere to specs as closely as possible but the argument could be made that these specs are very old and perhaps outdated in this respect.

I'm not sure what the answer to this is but it's an issue that's come to the forefront recently with my examination of Event tags.

Premium Chessgames Member <<chessgames> Do you know/use python much?>

I'm actually learning it lately but haven't used it for anything serious.

<Would you be interested in me making a blog post showing the code I used for this? ... >


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