< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 738 OF 738 ·
|Aug-29-14|| ||Shams: Can we get a dancing rook with Caruana's face on it? I'm willing to bet you'll get good use out of it over the next few years.|
|Aug-29-14|| ||chessgames.com: <whether or not TWIC supplied the games from the Women's Section?> Sure they did, I even have the link to the PGN: http://www.theweekinchess.com/asset... |
<dancing Caruana rook> That's a good idea.
|Aug-29-14|| ||zanzibar: <chessgames> thanks for the link!|
Not sure how I missed it, working too late at night I guess.
|Aug-29-14|| ||technical draw: Thanks all for the praises. Sometimes you think no one is paying attention then you are surprised by the well wishes and good reports. Well, now you're stuck with me for another year!|
|Aug-29-14|| ||zanzibar: <chessgames> FYI
TWIC does include the FIDE id for all colors for some of the games (171 if my program is working right) for Tromso wolm.
[Event "41st Olympiad Women 2014"]
[Site "Tromso NOR"]
[White "Ralivololona Hanitriniaina, Andri Hanitriniaini"]
[Black "Machlik, Edit"]
[Variation "exchange variation"]
[BlackTeam "Norway 2"]
[EventDate "2014.08.02"] >
He's got every tag but the kitchen sink... and <WhiteFideId>.
These kinds of inconsistencies are a major headache - I really need some part of the system stable in order to bootstrap.
Well, not really, but it's making the code increasing Ptolemaic in its error handling...
Do you know Mark? Maybe we should tip him off on it.
|Aug-29-14|| ||zanzibar: I know this most likely has come up before - but I'll repeat it again.|
(I'm not sure if I brought it up before, but if I did, apologies in advance).
Is it possible for <CG> to order a player's games not just by year, by also by Event/Site field as well?
In other words, can all the player's games from the same event be grouped together?
This sure would help me in scanning by eye for games <CG> has vs games which are missing.
|Aug-30-14|| ||zanzibar: And while I'm flooding the forum...
Can <CG> possibly normalize the Site tag for the <Sinquefield> pgn?
Here's what it gives currently (after R3):
<[Event "Saint Louis USA"]> x 5
<[Event "Saint Louis USA"]> x 2
<[Event "St. Louis USA"]>
This stuff chokes SCID, making it impossible to get an xtab out without fixing the pgn by hand.
|Aug-30-14|| ||zanzibar: And to add to the last post...
Also the player's names, <CG> is supplying the games with multiple versions in the PGN:
Aronian | L Aronian | Levon Aronian
Carlsen | Magnus Carlsen
Caruana | Fabiano Caruana
Hi Nakamura | Hikaru Nakamura
Maxime Vachier-Lagrave | Vachier Lagrave,M
V Topalov | Veselin Topalov
Yes, I admit to a name infatuation.
|Aug-30-14|| ||chessgames.com: Hi Zanzibar:
<Do you know Mark?> We've exchanged emails on a few occasions.
<Is it possible for <CG> to order a player's games not just by year, by also by Event/Site field as well?> They should be, but if it was really easy to do that we would have done it long ago. It's not a huge technical challenge to make it work, but to make it work really quickly will take finesse. It will require changes to SQL statements and some major re-indexing of our tables.
<Can <CG> possibly normalize the Site tag for the <Sinquefield> pgn?> This is a nuance that is probably new to you. Here's the situation:
During live broadcasts, the clock information is stuffed into the PGN. Since there are no widely accepted fields for "how much time white has / how much time black has" it has become a de facto practice to stuff that information into, of all things, the site field. So at the end of one of our live games, invariably we end up with a site that looks like <0:08:33-0:04:33>. (You'll notice it always has 33 seconds for both players. There's a story behind that as well, but I'll save it for another day.)
Fortunately we have written a program that identifies such data and replaces it with what it should be (it does this simply by looking for other site tags in the same tournament that aren't clock times.) In the rare occasion when it finds a discrepancy (two different site tags for the same event) an admin has to review the situation. For example "Linares/Morelia" from a few years back required manual fixing.
So I just ran the software at your request, but expect to see that kind of data slip into the games during the tournament. When it's over, we'll run it one last time to rid ourselves of the remaining mangled site tags.
In a perfect world the live-game-broadcasting software would know what to do when the game was over, and made that timestamp only show up while the game is in progress.
<Also the player's names, <CG> is supplying the games with multiple versions in the PGN> You are witnessing what the official site is producing--one run of fixpgn and it will all be normalized.
(Trivial side note: Ever noticed that half of the time I say "fixpgn" and the other have I say "pgnfix"? The reason is this: it really is called fixpgn, but by more orthodox naming conventions it should have been called pgnfix. (noun-verb). That way, if I want to see all the programs that do things to pgn, I could type <ls pgn*>. It's unlikely that I want to see all of the programs that "fix" things. But for whatever reason I named it fixpgn when I first made it, so now I live with it, and constantly confuse myself. It reminds me of the web server environment variable "referer", which was a typo made years ago, as "referrer" is how the word is spelled. Now it's been in use so long that's become the official name of it.)
|Aug-30-14|| ||Shams: <cg> I realize this could not be more trivial, but if Caruana pulls it off today against Levon it'd be a great time to unveil his Custom Dancing Rook!|
|Aug-31-14|| ||john barleycorn: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...|
I think, the opening classification is wrong.
It should be "King's Gambit (C30-C39)"
|Aug-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <chessgames> I have a lot of follow ups... but let me start with this one for one game:|
K Arakhamia-Grant vs V Da Vilhete, 2014
Both <CG> and <TWIC> have this as a 33-move win for White.
<FIDE>'s official link gives it as a 7-move win for White.
Pretty clear which result is correct, <TWIC>'s (assuming <CG> is following <TWIC> - it doesn't really get an independent vote). There is no way the game ended at move 7.
Now the question - how is it that <TWIC> got the correct score while <FIDE>'s site didn't?
1) Maybe Mark gets e-mailed the scores from the players themselves?
If so, it would be nice to have this information somehow noted. It would also be nice if the results could be forwarded to FIDE itself, in order to correct the record. FIDE really should be the authority for these games after all.
2) Maybe Mark has a special connection with <FIDE>, and they give him a different version than what they publish.
The obvious implication here is that <FIDE> really should correct the scores for both the public and <TWIC> if this were the case.
As a biographer we're supposed to care about stuff like this. As a chess player who downloads the games I would like to know the providence of the games - and to have the version I download as correct as possible.
|Aug-31-14|| ||SwitchingQuylthulg: <zanzibar> https://chess24.com/en/olympiad2014... has the 33-move version; it seems the .zip version has simply been truncated for some reason. You'll find it ends with "7. a3", not "7. a3 1-0".|
|Aug-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <switch> I suppose that could suggest a third possibility...|
3) FIDE once had the correct version of the game in an earlier zip-file, which <CG> and <TWIC> downloaded. Later, the zip-file got corrupted (or somehow updated with a corrupt/truncated version of the pgn).
I still wondering how anybody got the correct version of the game.
|Aug-31-14|| ||chessgames.com: So now it's looking like this might be a manifestation of my comment <On rare occasions (but not so rare to ignore) the process seems to work backwards, and something that was released correct ends up crazy in later updates.>|
|Aug-31-14|| ||OhioChessFan: Chessgames Editor Guide
<This is a tedius but rewarding project.>
I know my nitpicking is tedious, but that's a pretty ironic error.
|Aug-31-14|| ||chessgames.com: Haha, thanks Ohio.|
|Aug-31-14|| ||Penguincw: Hi <cg>. Would it be possible to create a personalized dancing rook for Caruana? I believe there's one for Carlsen, but since Caruana has already won 5 times at the Sinquefield Cup, would it be possible to make one for him (doesn't have to be used this tournament)?|
|Aug-31-14|| ||Annie K.: Can't let <Ohio> outpedant me, can I? ;p|
On the same page (Chessgames Editor Guide) -
<To remedy this daunting problem, the tireless efforts of our Chessgames Editors sort matters out using a powerful three-step process that we call "Tournment Induction":>
- maybe calling it "Tournament Induction" would be better...
BTW, look for a mail too. :)
|Aug-31-14|| ||Penguincw: Sorry for this, but I'd like to get involved too.
< Please describe you skills and resources as a chess historian, database expert, etc. >
Unfortunately, me no good enough (j/k). :)
|Aug-31-14|| ||chessgames.com: Thanks, it's only appropriate that the CG Editors end up going over the Chessgames Editor Guide with a fine tooth comb.|
|Aug-31-14|| ||chessgames.com: About the Caruana rook:
The reason why some players have rooks while most don't is that traditionally we have only made them for WCC and candidates events.
However we do make exceptions, and we've caught Caruana fever here just like the rest of you, so stay tuned.
|Aug-31-14|| ||zanzibar: <chessgames> & <switch> |
So FIDE does have the correct game, on the individual boards.
It's still not clear to me if the zip file was ever correct - since I'm still unsure if <CG> didn't get the correct version from <TWIC>.
Do you know?
As I've said before, my experience is that FIDE doesn't update the zip files once published. (I could be wrong).
* * * * *
A little more about <TWIC> vs <FIDE> for <Tromso Women olm 2014>.
It has some errors. Let's start with some errors that <CG> also has, concerning the FIDE id of these two players:
<FIDE missing names (not found in TWIC):
Ramirez M. Eugenia (3301680 vs Maria Eugenia Ramirez 3301133)
Sotomayor Villatoro, Silvi (7301057 vs Silvia Sotomayor 7300611)
I've left notes on <CG> for these players to try to help sort this out.
Next, ignoring the missing games that involve these two players, there is one game found on <TWIC> not on <FIDE>:
<2014.08.02 (R1.65) 1-0 Nikolovska, Dragana -- Winfred Thitu (C62) 39>
This is clearly just a mistake, as both Nikolovska and Thitu already have Round 1 games. (<CG> doesn't have this one).
There are also two <FIDE> games missing from <TWIC>:
<FIDE missing games (not found in TWIC):
2014.08.02 (R1.21) 1-0 Nikolovska, Dragana -- Maryam (C62) 39
2014.08.09 (R7.7) = Paloma, Gladys Anne -- Itangishaka Aurore (A00) 0>
The first game is on <CG>, but not the 2nd, since it's a stub game. I checked that individual game on chess24, and the moves were missing there as well.
And to finish the comparison, there are many <FIDE> games with a trivial extra move at the end, typically an illegal king move. <CG> and <TWIC> both eliminate these spurious moves.
|Sep-01-14|| ||OhioChessFan: <(often, but not always the owner of the collection) >|
Needs a comma after "always".
< there is always a demand up update tournament information >
|Sep-01-14|| ||zanzibar: One last question regarding <TWIC>'s version of <Tromso Women olm 2014>...|
Both <CG> and <TWIC> have different results from <FIDE>'s download (and their online individual version of these games):
C M Sihite vs Darlin Rocio Villar Acevedo, 2014 (CG 1-0 / FIDE 0-1)
P Zengeni vs A M Franco Valencia, 2014 (CG 0-1 / FIDE 1-0)
K Arakhamia-Grant vs S Kurbonboeva, 2014 (CG = / TWIC 1-0 / FIDE = )
Moletsane Maphuthi vs M Uwinkesha, 2014 (CG 1-0 / FIDE 0-1)
Dewi Ardhiani Anastasia Citra vs L Javakhishvili, 2014 (CG 0-1 / FIDE =)
I believe at least one of them has a final position of checkmate where FIDE result is wrong. And except where noted, <TWIC> agrees with <CG> for these games.
* * * * *
Now there are a couple of points.
1) The most important - what is the source of the different result?
As <chessgames> said, <CG> never uses an engine eval.
Of course, a final position of checkmate needs only common sense to determine the correct result. But what about all the other games?
I ran an engine, and found <TWIC> result agrees with the eval. It was always (or almost always) the higher rated player with the winning position.
So I would like to use the <CG> result. But where did it come from? <TWIC>?
And if so, then where did <TWIC> get the different result? From the eval? Where - I really would like to know.
Since, for all other purposes, <FIDE> (via chess24), seems to be the issuing authority - to change its results is something not done blithely.
And if <FIDE> is wrong, how can we make it right?
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