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Apr-21-07
 | | GoldenKnight: Wasn't Re1 here shown to be a win for Black? Or am I out of date? |
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| Apr-21-07 | | TefthePersian: It was. Bh3/a4 are the main possibilities. |
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Apr-21-07
| | GoldenKnight: <TefthePersian: It was. Bh3/a4 are the main possibilities.> Thanks, <Tef>. You and <Artar1> have done tremendous work on Bh3. It seems that has been proven a draw. Is that correct? If there's still work to be done on it, what can I do? I also believe work on a4 has been shown to be advantageous for Black, but not yet a forced win. Anything left to be done on that? I wonder what message I'm getting from the dearth of posters (I can't talk, though, I guess I'm one of the ones). Thanks again. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Skylark: I still think he will play 29. Bh3; it's a very human move and probably his best choice in a difficult position. <Draw requests: less than 10%. That's good news. However, it is looming quite large. That particular statistic may not break 25% until we have only two kings on the board.> I don't know about anyone else here, but no matter who I'm playing, if I think I have even an inkling of an advantage I will play out a position to the death. And considering that at the worst it looks like we may have to go into the teft ending in which white will have to try very hard to hold the draw, I think it would be silly to forgoe the possible mass amount of endgame knowledge we could all consume by pondering such a position. The world doesn't relinquish a draw without a fight; or at least I'd hope not. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | TefthePersian: <GoldenKnight>: For Bh3, you can definitely try to dream up ideas, but the various options have all been considered by someone, at least. I favor playing Qe7 (to a lesser degree Qf3/Qh5 as they are more forcing) and then hoping for a mistake. Yuri might not want a draw, we haven't been considering that. Maybe he'll go for a queenside expansion and mess up. I'm definitely with you on the Teft endgame. No matter what, we can enter that and we can laugh all the way to the draw, knowing we got the better of a grandmaster. |
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Apr-22-07
| | GoldenKnight: Quote of the day, compliments of <Skylark>: "The World doesn't relinquish a draw without a fight!" Yes, it may not be remembered, but I did some work on the Teft endgame, and regarding that we have our second quote of the day, compliments of <Tef>: "No matter what, we can enter [the Teft endgame] and we can laugh all the way to the draw, knowing we got the better of a grandmaster." With two such fine quotes to stir us on, let's not have any handwringing from anyone, but let's have the attitude espoused by Oakland Raider's football team owner, Al Davis: "Just do it, baby."
And that's the third quote of the day. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Artar1: Hi everyone! Just checking in.
Do we have a consensus as to what we will play should Yury play 29.Bh3? Thanks! |
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| Apr-22-07 | | edda zeitz: <Artar1: Do we have a consensus as to what we will play should Yury play 29.Bh3?> Looking at the game after a fortnight's absence I really wonder why the team voted for 25.- Qf7 intead of a5. Looking at the current position and ignoring the calls of my engine ("Switch me on! Let me analyse!") I would play (after 29. Bh3) Qf3. YS would be forced to answer Bg2, admitting that white can't win this game.
After 30.Bg2 the team could still debate whether to accept the draw or try something else. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Knightlord: <edda zeitz><Looking at the game after a fortnight's absence I really wonder why the team voted for 25.- Qf7 intead of a5.>
I agree, I posted this 11 days ago:
<Apr-11-07 Knightlord: I hate to be contrary too, but I really do believe 25...Qf7 is our first mistake. There were two plausible ways to prevent 26.Rd3; a5 and Qf7. a5 being the direct one and Qf7 the tactical one. I think in cases like this, one should only play tactically when it leads to a winning position. Now we will see that tactics run out after a couple of moves and the position has somewhat opened up. I don't think that's in our favour. We might end up losing a tempo with a5 or with a status quo. Sorry if I'm sounding trollish but I had to get this off my chest. I hope I didn't offend anyone, maybe I'm underestimating the engine lines and have I offended some analysts by doing so. I apologize if that is the case. >
I thought we should have played a5 while our queen was still on e7. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Hugin: Artar1: Hi everyone! Just checking in. Do we have a consensus as to what we will play should Yury play 29.Bh3? Thanks!<<<<<<<<<
29.Bh3 b5 30.e6 (Is the strongest line for white)30...Qh5 31.Bg2 Re8 32.Re1 d4 33.Qe4 Bxe6! (Rxe6 gives white a easy draw) '
'
click for larger view
34 Bxd4 Bf7! I thought we all agreed this was the strongest line?. Am i missing something? |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Artar1: Hugin:
Deep Fritz 10 sees it a little differently:
<27... Qf7 28. exd5 exd5 29. Bh3 b5 30. e6 Qh5 31. Bg2 Re8 32. Re1 d4 33. Qe4 Bxe6 34. Bxd4 Bf7> 
click for larger viewFritz continues, 20-ply depth for each ply examined:
35. Be5 Nd2 36. Qf4 Nc4 37. Bc3 Rxe1+ 38. Bxe1 Kh8
<(38...Nxa3 39. Qb8+ Be8 40. Qxa7  )> 39. Bc3
20-ply at move 39:
click for larger view1. (0.36): 39...Qg6 40.h4 Bg8 41.Qg5 Qxg5 42.hxg5 Nxa3 43.f4 Bb3 44.f5 Kg8 45.Bc6 h6 46.gxh6 gxh6 47.Bd4 Nc2 48.Bxa7 Nxb4 2. (0.46): 39...Nxa3 40.Qd4 Qg6 41.h4 Bg8 42.h5 Qh6 43.f4 Nc4 44.Qxa7 Nd6 45.Qd7 Nf7 46.Qg4 Nd6 47.Be5 3. (0.54): 39...Qd1+ 40.Bf1 Qh5 41.h3 Qg6+ 42.Kh2 Qd6 43.Qxd6 Nxd6 44.Bg2 a6 45.Bd4 Kg8 46.Bc5 Nc4 47.Bb7 Nxa3 48.Bxa6 g5 4. (0.56): 39...a6 40.h4 Qg6 41.Kh2 Qd6 42.Qxd6 5. (0.57): 39...Bg8 40.Qg3 Qf7 41.Bc6 Nxa3 42.h4 Qg6 43.Qxg6 hxg6 44.Bd4 Nc2 45.Bc5 Bc4 46.Be4 Ne1 47.Bxa7 6. ± (0.74): 39...Kg8 40.Qb8+ Be8 41.Bd5+ Kf8 42.Qf4+ Bf7 43.Be4 a6 44.Kg2 h6 45.Bd4 Kg8 46.Qb8+ Be8 47.Qg3 Qg5 48.Qxg5 It would appear that White has a small advantage in this line. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Hugin: Artar1: Hugin:
Deep Fritz 10 sees it a little differentl<<<< Did you test the line in matches between 2 rather equal engines or is this just one engines line?. I have many times seen one engines output like rybka often does not reveal the truth, about a position. And have posted such experiences several times already...At the same time i have seen no line convincing me about anything then draw after 29 Bh3, except the line i have posted. That gives us a small chance but are probably to hard to push a team through..... |
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Apr-22-07
 | | Tabanus: Rybka 2.2 analysis of 29.Bh3 Qh5 30.Bg2 Qg4 31.Re1 (25-ply): A (-0.09) 31...Nd4 32.Bxd4 Qxd4 33.e6 g6 34.a4 Re8 35.Bh3 a6 B (0.00) 31...Qe6 32.Re3 d4 33.Rg3 b5 34.Qe4 d3 35.Rxd3 Bxd3 Sliding on A: 31...Nd4 32.Bxd4 Qxd4 (23-ply):
A1 (-0.10) 33.e6 g6 34.a4 Re8 35.Bh3 a6 36.Qc1 Qf6 37.Qd2 Re7 A2 (-0.15) 33.h3 Re8 34.e6 Qf6 35.Qd2 d4 36.Re4 Bxe6 37.Rxd4 Sliding on A1: 33.e6 g6 (25-ply):
1. = (-0.09): 34.a4 Re8 35.Bh3 a6 36.Qc1 Qf6 37.Qd2 Re7 38.Rc1 Kg7 39.f4 Re8 40.Re1 d4 2. = (-0.12): 34.Bh3 Qf4 35.Bg2 Re8 36.Qd1 Kg7 37.a4 Qf6 38.Bh3 Re7 39.Qc2 a6 40.Qd2 g5 3. = (-0.13): 34.e7 Re8 35.Qc1 Kg7 36.a4 Qf6 37.Qe3 d4 38.Qe4 Bf7 39.Bf1 Qg5+ 40.Bg2 d3 4. = (-0.13): 34.b5 Re8 35.Qc1 Qf6 36.Qd2 d4 37.Re4 Bxe6 38.Rxd4 Kg7 39.Bc6 Re7 40.Kg2 Qf5 5. = (-0.15): 34.Bf1 Qg4+ 35.Bg2 Re8 36.h3 Qd4 37.Rd1 Qe5 38.Qd2 d4 39.Qxd4 Qxd4 40.Rxd4 Bxe6 6. = (-0.15): 34.Rd1 Qg4 35.Qd2 Re8 36.Kh1 Qxe6 37.Bxd5 Bxd5+ 38.Qxd5 Qxd5+ 39.Rxd5 Kf7 40.Kg2 Ke6 7. = (-0.15): 34.h3 Re8 35.Rd1 Qe5 36.Qd2 d4 37.Qxd4 Qxd4 38.Rxd4 Bxe6 39.Bd5 Bxd5 40.Rxd5 Re7 |
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Apr-22-07
| | Tabanus: B (0.00) 31...Qe6 32.Re3 d4 33.Rg3 b5 above:
Here RV's 30-ply -0.18 analysis differs from my 0.00 one by 34.Be4 instead of 34.Qe4. So a separate analysis after 33...b5 could be helpful. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Hugin: Tabanus you have apparently a huge hardware can't you find another strong engine, and set it up against rybka in the following position and tell us what lines they played?.29.Bh3 b5 30.e6 (Is the strongest line for white)30...Qh5 31.Bg2 Re8 32.Re1 d4 33.Qe4 Bxe6! (Rxe6 gives white a easy draw) ' ' 34 Bxd4 Bf7! Starting position: Set Rybka up as white please. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | blegaspi: <GoldenKnight: ... but let's have the attitude espoused by Oakland Raider's football team owner, Al Davis: "Just do it, baby." >
This is Al Davis meets Nike;-) It should be "Just win, baby!" |
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Apr-22-07
| | Tabanus: <Hugin> I only have a Pentium 4 with 1024 RAM. It has been running all night... I'm running 29...Qe7 30.e6 b5 31.Qc3 d4 32.Qg3 Qf6 33.Re1 Nd2 now. 22-ply 0.00 by 34.Bg4 and 34.f4 so far. I don't know how to make an engine match automatically. But your idea is good! Provided high search depth on every ply... |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Thorsson: <Hugin: Tabanus you have apparently a huge hardware can't you find another strong engine, and set it up against rybka in the following position and tell us what lines they played?.29.Bh3 b5 30.e6 (Is the strongest line for white)30...Qh5 31.Bg2 Re8 32.Re1 d4 33.Qe4 Bxe6! (Rxe6 gives white a easy draw)> I'm not convinced by Bxe6. After 34.Bxd4 Bf7 35.Be5 Nd2 36.Qf4 Nc4 37.Bc3 Rxe1+ 38.Bxe1 it looks just as drawish as the other lines. All of which says the anti-positional b5 may not be as good as some would have us believe. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Skylark: b5 isn't necessarily anti-positional. It prepares d4 by protecting the c4 bishop, and thus can counterattack the strong thrust of the e-pawn with an equally strong thrust with the d-pawn. I firmly believe our strongest continuation after 29. Bh3 to be 29. ... b5 30. e6 Qe7, and that's how I'll be voting. I think the real anti-positional move would be 30. .. Qh5. It will be interesting to see the voting polls over the next few moves. |
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Apr-22-07
 | | fm avari viraf: There so many lines for White either gives him some plus or equality. But what if White plays e6 opening up the long diagonal? |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Hugin: Tabanus: I don't know how to make an engine match automatically. But your idea is good! Provided high search depth on every ply.. <<<<<< Hey there tabanus you can save any positon that occures, on the board in a file named testsets in a chessbase products as fritz etc...Then you goes to file pull down menue and pull to the left and hit engine match....Engine vs Engine graphic/pics will then jump up on the screen...Hit openings DB there, go to testsets click on the position saved. Chose engines facing each other and time and your running engine matches in the specific position you wants. Enjoy i guarantee you will like it! |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Hugin: Thorsson: <Hugin: Tabanus you have apparently a huge hardware can't you find another strong engine, and set it up against rybka in the following position and tell us what lines they played?.29.Bh3 b5 30.e6 (Is the strongest line for white)30...Qh5 31.Bg2 Re8 32.Re1 d4 33.Qe4 Bxe6! (Rxe6 gives white a easy draw)> I'm not convinced by Bxe6. After 34.Bxd4 Bf7 35.Be5 Nd2 36.Qf4 Nc4 37.Bc3 Rxe1+ 38.Bxe1 it looks just as drawish as the other lines. All of which says the anti-positional b5 may not be as good as some would have us believe.<<<<<<<<< Ok swell! come up with something better! and show it to us...We been working for days on lines, anyone proving they have something better are welcomed to post it. |
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| Apr-22-07 | | Hugin: Artar1: Hugin:
Deep Fritz 10 sees it a little differently:
<27... Qf7 28. exd5 exd5 29. Bh3 b5 30. e6 Qh5 31. Bg2 Re8 32. Re1 d4 33. Qe4 Bxe6 34. Bxd4 Bf7 Fritz continues, 20-ply depth for each ply examined:
35. Be5 Nd2 36. Qf4 Nc4 37. Bc3 Rxe1+ 38. Bxe1 Kh8 ?? <<<Kh8 is simply a weak move does not solve backrank problems for black. Surely h6 is much better in that variation.. put that into Dr fritz and it will do a lot better. |
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Apr-22-07
 | | Chessgames Challenge:
29.a4
click for larger view
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| Apr-22-07 | | Dionyseus: I have voted for 29...a6, per <RandomVisitor>'s analysis. |
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