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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 62 OF 598 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-25-13 | | Tiggler: Quite fitting if the World suffers its first loss because some Spacebar Master left the Caps Lock on. |
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| Sep-25-13 | | chesstoplay: Hi Team,
I'll be gone for the next 3 to 4 hours.
If anyone wants to do the voter updates for everyone's benefit, please do! TY! chesstoplay / Peter |
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Sep-25-13
 | | Tabanus: <avidfan> if 3...d5 4.c4 then 4...d4 and Critter has -0.60 --> advantage Black. |
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Sep-25-13
 | | OhioChessFan: <Tabanus: I touched the <Space Bar> and lost everything> You are for sure no Spacebar Master. |
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| Sep-25-13 | | kwid: Sep-25-13 < zsoydd: Hi <Kwid>>
Thanks. Without getting into deep analysis my gut feeling is that black should easily hold with the bishop pair in such positions and force a draw if required. And yes the team would have fun to work with such positions.
As to my d6 suggestion, I think that such positions where you give our opponent a lot of credit for his experience we would have a lot of human input also to keep us a flowed. Best Regards,
kwid |
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| Sep-25-13 | | zsoydd: . in case 3...d5 4.Bb5 Nge7 turns out too risky, and we opt for 4...Bd6
we don't need to fear 3... d5 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. f4 f6 6. Qh5+ g6 7. Qh4
since even the very best "1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3" corr player himself has lost this line with white [Event "CT15/sf03"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2009.03.25"]
[White "Punzon Moraleda, Jesus"]
[Black "Funke, Klaus"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2399"]
[BlackElo "2427"]
1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 d5 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. f4 f6 6. Qh5+ g6 7. Qh4 exf4 8. Nf3 Kf7 9. Nc3 Nce7 10. Bd3 c6 11. O-O-O Nf5 12. Bxf5 Bxf5 13. Rhe1 h5 14. e4 Bg4 15. exd5 cxd5 16. Nxd5 Rc8 17. Re2 Bc5 18. Nc3 Nh6 19. Ne4 g5 20. Qe1 Bxf3 21. gxf3 Bd4 22. c3 f5 23. Nf2 Bf6 24. Qf1 Qd5 25. Nh3 Rhe8 26. Kc2 Rxe2 27. Qxe2 a6 28. Re1 b5 29. Kb1 Rd8 30. d4 a5 31. Qd1 Ng4 32. fxg4 hxg4 33. Ng1 f3 34. Qd2 Rc8 35. Ka1 a4 36. bxa4 bxa4 37. a3 Kg6 38. Qf2 Qb3 39. Qd2 Rb8 40. Rf1 Be7 41. Qc1 Bd6 42. h3 Qc4 43. Nxf3 gxf3 44. Rxf3 Re8 45. Qb1 Re4 46. Rd3 Re2 47. d5 Be5 48. Qd1 Qe4 49. Qb1 f4 50. Bc1 Re1 51. Kb2 Bd6 0-1 [Event "Rochade-20/TT"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2009.11.01"]
[White "Punzon Moraleda, Jesus"]
[Black "Dolgov, Igor Mikhailovich"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2431"]
[BlackElo "2507"]
1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 d5 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. f4 f6 6. Qh5+ g6 7. Qh4 exf4 8. Nf3 fxe3 9. O-O Bd7 10. Bd3 Qe7 11. Nc3 Nb4 12. Bxg6+ hxg6 13. Qxh8 O-O-O 14. dxe3 Qxe3+ 15. Kh1 Nh6 16. Qh7 Ng4 17. Rae1 Nf2+ 18. Kg1 1/2-1/2 |
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Sep-25-13
| | OhioChessFan: To the tune of Some Kind of Wonderful-Grand Funk Railroad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7B5...
I don't need a whole lots of memory,
I don't need a big quad core.
I got everything that a man could want,
I got more than I could ask for.
I don't have to think too much,
I don't have to stay up all night.
'Cause I got me a sweet
A sweet, rockin' chess team,
And they know just how to win a fight.
Well my chess team, they’re alright,
Well my chess team, they’re clean out-of-sight.
Don't you know that they’re...
They’re some kind of wonderful.
They’re some kind of wonderful...
Yes they are, they’re,
They’re some kind of wonderful, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeahhh ... When they start their engines up,
You know their plies are goin’ higher.
Oooh, when the forums start to run,
You know they set The World on fire.
When the Spacebar Masters are playin’,
About drives me out of my mind.
Yeah, when I read the Analysis Tree,
Chills run up and down my spine.
Well my chess team, they’re alright,
Well my chess team, they’re clean out-of-sight.
Don't you know that they’re...
They’re some kind of wonderful.
They’re some kind of wonderful...
Yes they are, they’re,
They’re some kind of wonderful, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeahhh ... Now is there anybody
Got a sweet little chess team like mine?
There got to be somebody
Got a, got a sweet little chess team like mine?
Yeah!
Can I get a witness?
Can I get a witness?
Can I get a witness? Yeah ...
Can I get a witness? Ohhh ...
Can I get a witness? Yeah ...
Can I get a witness? Yes.
I'm talkin', talkin' 'bout my chess team.
Yeah.
They’re some kind of wonderful.
Talkin' 'bout my chess team.
They’re some kind of wonderful.
Talkin' 'bout my chess team.
They’re some kind of wonderful.
I'm talkin' 'bout my chess team, my chess team, my chess team.
They’re some kind of wonderful.
I'm talkin' about my chess team, my chess team, my chess team.
They’re some kind of wonderful.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah...
My chess team, my chess team.
They’re some kind of wonderful.
Talkin' 'bout my chess team, my chess team, my chess team.
They’re some kind of wonderful.
I'm talkin' 'bout my chess team, my chess team, my chess team.
They’re some kind of wonderful.
(repeat to fade) |
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| Sep-25-13 | | YetAnotherAmateur: <lost in space> I don't particularly like that position as black: If I'm white, I have a clear plan of going after d5 and c7 (both supported solely by the queen, and both basically immobile) to open up a hole in the black pawn line, then charge right through the center aiming at the exposed black king. |
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Sep-25-13
 | | AylerKupp: <<OhioChessFan> You are for sure no Spacebar Master> Oh, I don't know about that. It takes a lot of talent to lose so much work with so little effort. :-) |
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| Sep-25-13 | | Zhbugnoimt: I voted for Nf6 |
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Sep-25-13
| | Tabanus: <kwid> We don't have to play Kf7 and end up in that position. 3...d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 (5.Nf3 Qe7) 5...f6 6.Qh5+ (6.fxe5 fxe5 7.Nf3) (6.Nc3 Nge7 7.fxe5 fxe5 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qh4 Be6 10.Nf3 a6 11.Be2 Qd7 12.Ng5 Nf5 13.Qa4 Bg8 14.Nb5 Qd8 15.Nxd6+ cxd6 16.Nf3 Be6!) 6...g6 7.Qh4 exf4 8.exf4 Bd7 9.Nf3 Qe7+ 10.Kf2 O-O-O 11.Re1 Qf7 -0.13/22 8.Nf3 fxe3 9.O-O Bd7 10.dxe3 (10.Nc3 Nce7!) Ne5 -0.08/23 
click for larger viewIf we can keep the pawn in these lines (which it seems) we have something to build on. I voted 3...d5, but may switch if someone find White improvements. 3...d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 the "manly" moves ;) |
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| Sep-25-13 | | Boomie: ->
I've been following this fine discussion from afar, rattling my spacebar without coming to any definite conclusion. The argument that rings truest for me is that equal tactical positions cannot be won in Centaur chess. The engines preclude any tactical mistakes. We can only hope to win positional struggles. This requires investigating far beyond the engine horizons to find favorable endgames. For this reason, I favor Nf6 with the KID setup. |
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| Sep-25-13 | | kwid: Sep-25-13 < zsoydd: .
in case 3...d5 4.Bb5 Nge7 turns out too risky, and we opt for 4...Bd6>Interesting. I have quite a few games with Qh4 myself if we ever should get there. [Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "A 01/11"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1/2"]
[ECO "A01"]
[PlyCount "52"]
[EventDate "2000.??.??"]
1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 d5 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. f4 f6 6. Qh5+ g6 <7. Qh4> exf4 8. Nf3
fxe3 9. O-O Bd7 10. Nc3 Nce7 11. Bxd7+ Qxd7 12. dxe3 O-O-O 13. e4 g5 14. Qf2
Kb8 15. Nxd5 Nxd5 16. exd5 Nh6 17. c4 Ng4 18. Qd4 Rhe8 19. Rae1 Rxe1 20. Rxe1
Re8 21. Rxe8+ Qxe8 22. Qxg4 Qe2 23. Bxf6 Bf4 24. h3 Qd1+ 25. Kf2 Qc2+ 26. Kg1
Qd1+ |
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| Sep-25-13 | | DcGentle: After quite some tries, I am rather certain, that in the line <1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 Nf6> the toughest white answers are <4. c4> and <4. Nf3>. The posted correspondence games confirm this. And they show another fact: Black rushed forward with their d-pawn after <4. c4> and with their e-pawn after <4. Nf3> and was not very successful, and this is an understatement. Fortunately there is a more subtle method for Black, and <kwid> already hinted at this. The method means slow but steady development without offering the opponent weak spots. BTW, when we rush forward with <3... d5>, we cannot stick to this method, there will be holes in our position, and only superior tactical play can safe us. We will be extremely dependent on the engines. But the proponents of this move know it, I guess. |
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| Sep-25-13 | | joupajou: Posted votes... a compilation:
3. … Nf6
imag
kwid
hms123
kutztown46
tiggler
stunningmove
OhioChessFan
DcGentle
morfishine
benjinathan
blue wave
DanLanglois
optimal play
Peterfritz
Marmot PFL
PawnSac
zendokun
joupajou
simpliCty
hedgehog
Wyatt Gwyon
YetAnotherAmateur
chesstoplay
Zhbugnoimt
3. … d5
zsoydd
lost in space
Plang
BobbieM
pajaste
Penguincw
WannaBe
builttospill
weisyschwarz
GauraNitai
talisman
auh2o
milt
condition
3. ... d6
ajile
Ceri
parmetd
thegoodanarchist
MikeB20
3. ... a6
WinKing
Ron
Domdaniel
Errors or omissions are my fault. Please post corrections. |
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| Sep-25-13 | | zsoydd: behold!
the blind-hen variation: 3...d5 4.Bb5 Nge7 |
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Sep-25-13
| | Tabanus: <joupajou> Quote: <I voted 3...d5> |
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Sep-25-13
 | | keypusher: Looked over the kibitzing and the analysis page and changed my vote from 3....d5 to 3....Nf6. Suspect I will not be participating too much going forward, as I won't be putting in the effort I think really contributing to the team requires. But I will cheer you on and keep dropping in from time to time. |
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| Sep-25-13 | | stunningmove: <Boomie: equal tactical positions cannot be won in Centaur chess. The engines preclude any tactical mistakes. We can only hope to win positional struggles.> Wisdom. That is why you and I both voted Nf6. d5 might be what you would play OTB but is it what we should play as a team? I believe the Correspondence database shows white winning twice as many games as black in the d5 variations. |
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| Sep-25-13 | | zsoydd: . since I like 3...d5 very vastly much more than anyone else likes 3...Nf6 the linear optimization problem aggregated_team_satisfaction(move) --> MAX
has a simple to find optimum
can you spot it? |
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Sep-25-13
 | | PawnSac: <parmetd: I am for 3... d6 too > d6 is a good line if you intend to follow with f5 after. If not, and you plan to play f5 eventually, but after g6 and Bg7 then i would play g6 immediately.
I will post some caruana games with d6 |
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| Sep-25-13 | | cormier: fritz 12 book opening: if 3...d5 4.Bb5 Bd6 5.f4 Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe7 7.Nf3 f6 ...
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 3 Pro w32:
8.fxe5 fxe5 9.Bxc6+ bxc6 10.Nxe5 Qg5 11.Nf3 Qg6 12.0-0 Nh6 13.Nh4 Qg5 14.Qe2 Nf7 15.Qg2 0-0 16.Nc3 Bg4 17.h3 Bd7 18.Ne2 Ne5 19.Rxf8+ Rxf8 20.Nf4 Qf6 21.d4 Nf7 22.Nf3 Bf5 23.Rf1 Be4
= (0.25) Depth: 21/56 00:02:09 176mN
8.fxe5 fxe5
= (0.01 --) Depth: 22/66 00:07:23 620mN |
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| Sep-25-13 | | joupajou: Posted votes... a compilation:
3.…Nf6
imag
kwid
hms123
kutztown46
tiggler
stunningmove
OhioChessFan
DcGentle
morfishine
benjinathan
bluewave
DanLanglois
optimalplay
Peterfritz
MarmotPFL
PawnSac
zendokun
joupajou
simpliCty
hedgehog
WyattGwyon
YetAnotherAmateur
chesstoplay
Zhbugnoimt
3.…d5
zsoydd
lostinspace
Plang
BobbieM
pajaste
Penguincw
WannaBe
builttospill
weisyschwarz
GauraNitai
talisman
auh2o
milt
condition
Tabanus
3....d6
ajile
Ceri
parmetd
thegoodanarchist
MikeB20
3....a6
WinKing
Ron
Domdaniel
Errors or omissions are my fault. Please post corrections. <14:13 as per server's clock> |
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| Sep-25-13 | | stunningmove: <zsoydd> Very interesting pawn sacrifice with 3...d5 4.Bb5 Nge7 I wonder if the World Team is up to a pawn sac without obvious compensation (not denying engine analysis) in a Centaur game? Also I seriously question if the folks voting d5 will follow this line? I seriously doubt it. Or is it more likely they will follow their engines? For all these reasons I can't vote that way BUT I like your thinking. It is a line worth examining further, especially in OTB play to see why the engines feel black has compensation. |
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Sep-25-13
| | PawnSac: I want to go on record as stating in my first post that my original instinct was to play ..d5. It is the principled continuation. And there are several continuations, but after ..d5 4.Bb5 f6 is solid for black, and the CG database has a few games favoring black. < ..d5, ..Nf6, ..d6 and ..g6 are all playable. BUT if ..d5 has one advantage over the others, as least as far as i have found so far, there are less example games that Simon may use for study.> ..Nf6 and ..d6 has a lot of games in the ICC database, and Caruana plays both lines. Here is an example.. [Event "ICC"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2013.09.25"]
[White "Smallville"]
[Black "Adaptation"]
[Result "*"]
[TimeControl "300+0"]
1. b3 e5 2. Bb2 Nc6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Bb5 Bd6 5. Bxc6 dxc6
6. d3 O-O 7. Nd2 Re8 8. e4 Nd7 9. Ne2 Nf8 10. O-O Ng6 11. Nc4 Be6 12. Ne3 a5 13. a4 c5
14. Nf5 Qd7 15. Neg3 Nf4 16. Qd2 } g6 17. Nh6+ Kf8 18. Ne2 Nxe2+ 19. Qxe2 Kg7 20. Qd2 f6
21. f4 exf4 22. Rxf4 Bxf4 23. Qxf4 Rf8 24. Rf1 Qe7 25. g4 Rad8
26. h4 Rd4 27. Qe3 Qd6 28. g5 Qe5 29. Bxd4 cxd4 30. Qf3 c6
31. Ng4 Bxg4 32. Qxg4 f5 33. exf5 Rxf5 34. Rxf5 gxf5 35. Qh5 Qe3+
36. Kg2 Qd2+ 37. Kh3 Qe3+ 38. Kg2 Qd2+ 39. Kh3 Qe3+ 40. Kg2 Qd2+
41. Kg3 Qe1+ 42. Kf4 Qe3+ 43. Kxf5 Qf2+ 44. Ke6 Qe3+ 45. Kd7 Qh3+
46. Kc7 b5 47. Qh6+ Kg8 48. g6 Qg3+ 49. Kxc6 hxg6 50. Qg5 Qf3+
51. Kxb5 Qb7+ 52. Kxa5 Qc7+ 53. Kb4 Qc3+ 54. Kb5 Kh7 55. Qe7+ Kh6
56. Qc5 ♗lack resigns
This is between Nakamura and Caruana.
Keep in mind it is a 5 min game. |
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Kibitzing
