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| Dec-15-21 | | Allanur: * Cramer's proposal was made in September 1973.
* In October 1973, Fischer was asked if he was going to quit chess and in return Fischer denied it, challenging Spassky into a rematch. This dialogue occured in Philippines.
* Karpov defeated Spassky and Fischer demanded Cramer's proposal be in use in the next title match. Commentary: Fischer did not talk of anything about Cramer's proposal when he was challenging Spassky into a rematch. Insisting on it after Spassky was eliminated by Karpov seems strange.
I grant that correlation does not equate to causation but without further knowledge, what comes into my mind is that Fischer demanded it for Karpov exclusively. |
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| Dec-15-21 | | Allanur: Additional/correction to the previous post;
Fischer was advocating for first-to-win-6 draws not counting as early as 1970 when a match between him and Botvinnik was proposed. Also, as early as Cuba 1966 Olympiad, Fischer was insisting on first to win 6 draws not counting format when a match between him and Leonid Stein was proposed in Cuba. IIRC, Brady's account has him advocating for the same format for future World Championship matches. All in all, it is not reasonable to think Fischer demanded Cramer's proposal deliverately for Karpov. I draw my previous comment back. |
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| Dec-15-21 | | Allanur: Some top level grandmasters of the time commentated on the demands of Fischer. Here are the ones covered in the New York Times on the 7th of October, 1974 : Anatoly Karpov: “the terms are ungentlemanly and unfeasible.” “To play until 10 victories is an awful thing.” “The match can last three or four months, and it is impossible to play chess so much; it will cease being an art and turn into forced labor.”
Larry Evans: “unfair”.
Bent Larsen: “his proposal was absolutely unrealistic”. “A five‐month match would be horrible for everybody involved —players, officials, journalists, readers, spectators — everybody,” … “The advance of chess does not depend on one person. If he does not want 10 play he is free to stay away from chess competition and everybody is free to fantasize about his reasons.”
Svetozar Gligoric: “I would consider competing with Fischer under any circumstances, for it favors the popularization of the noble game.” To charges that an open‐ended match could bog down into an endless struggle, Gligoric said “a match of undertermined length would guarantee ever better, more competitive and exciting chess.” |
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| Dec-15-21 | | Allanur: Also, I am unable to source it now (unable to find the source) but here is another info about this event: as far as I recall, after the extraordinary congress in March 1975, Max Euwe came up with a plan that could possibly grant all sides what they wanted: * Unlimited match like Fischer demanded (and congress approved). * The match is declared draw if the score is 9-9 BUT after the following condition is met: ** If the score reaches 9-9, 10 more games would need to be played. If the score is still equal, then the match is draw and the prize is split equally * During that last 10 games in case of a 9-9 score, whoever scores the first win would win the match. This plan responded to all sides: Fischer's critics unfairly argued that the challenger needs to win by 2 - Euwe's plan solved this problem: both sides can win by 10-9. Fischer wanted unlimited match and 9-9 draw odds, he was given both. Unfortunately, Fischer did not respond to this offer. |
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Dec-15-21
 | | MissScarlett: <All in all, it is not reasonable to think Fischer demanded Cramer's proposal deliverately for Karpov. I draw my previous comment back.> You haven't explained the reason for the change of first-to-6 to first-to-10. |
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| Dec-15-21 | | Petrosianic: <Allanur>: <Fischer was advocating for first-to-win-6 draws not counting as early as 1970 when a match between him and Botvinnik was proposed.> Don't think Fischer EVER wanted 6 wins. He'd wanted 10 wins going back to the early 60's. He walked out of the Botvinnik match at the last minute when they refused to change it from Best of 20 to 10 wins. Again, not 6. At the 1971 FIDE Congress in Vancouver, FIDE accepted Fischer's proposal to make the 1975 Match a 10 Wins affair (again, not 6), but in June 1974 they had second thoughts and decided to cap the match at 36 games (changing the 10 wins requirement to a ZERO wins requirement). At that point Fischer resigned his title, having been champion less than 2 years, without trying to fight for his conditions, and never got it back. |
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| Dec-16-21 | | Allanur: @Petrosianic, really? Fischer demanded 10 wins rule against Botwinnik? I know it as 6. Also, I was not aware of the FIDE congress' changes preceeding Fischer's telegram. I now understood |
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| Dec-16-21 | | RookFile: It's too bad Korchnoi didn't emerge as Fischer's challenger. Fischer has these conditions? No problem he would have said, come out and fight. |
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Dec-16-21
 | | harrylime: <<RookFile: It's too bad Korchnoi didn't emerge as Fischer's challenger. Fischer has these conditions? No problem he would have said, come out and fight.>> That's what folk don't get
Fischer was really up against the Soviet Union and the COLD WAR was raging. The match would in other times have gone ahead.
Bobby gets a raw deal in chess history here. |
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Dec-17-21
 | | Dionysius1: I think <harrylime> is a sock puppet of a more overtly respectable kibitzer, who's having fun goading his own hand. Morally, couldn't they be as rude to each other as they want? |
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| Dec-17-21 | | Allanur: @Rookfile, <It's too bad Korchnoi didn't emerge as Fischer's challenger. Fischer has these conditions? No problem he would have said, come out and fight.> Only to complain after the match in case he loses. After he lost to Karpov in 1978, he appealed to a court, complaning the conditions were unfair. He did even not sign the closing documents as a result of which his prize money was not granted (then years later he was paid). If the conditions are unfair, you do not agree to play, you do not show up. Spassky once said "Korchnoi needs to hate his opponent so that he can play." However, Korchnoi was always on good terms with Fischer and held him in high esteem. Never created on-the-board problems against Fischer. Even long after Fischer called him Korchy and showed him "among the lowest dogs around": Kaspy, Karpy, Korchy, Campy. In 2015 Korchnoi was interviewed. During that interview he was asked Karpov or Kasparov: who was better. Korch replied Kasparov's chess is much better than Karpov's. Then,he was asked if Kasparov was even better than Fischer to which Korchnoi answered smiling: Fischer, Fischer. He was in a class by himself. |
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| Dec-17-21 | | whiteshark: Of all the things that never happened, this never happened the most. |
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Dec-17-21
 | | keypusher: <whiteshark: Of all the things that never happened, this never happened the most.> And here I thought it was impossible to make an original post on this page. |
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| Dec-18-21 | | saturn2: <Korchnoi was interviewed. During that interview he was asked Karpov or Kasparov: who was better.> There is enough evidence for the answer. They played enough games against each other. <Korchnoi answered smiling: Fischer, Fischer. He was in a class by himself.> And Fischer said Morphy was in a class by himself.
And other say this of Muhammed Ali and of Pele Messi, Rod Laver or Pavlo Nurmi. This is a pleasant topic for long winternights. |
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| Dec-18-21 | | Allanur: <<Korchnoi was interviewed. During that interview he was asked Karpov or Kasparov: who was better.>
There is enough evidence for the answer. They played enough games against each other.>
Classical games: Garry Kasparov beat Anatoly Karpov 28 to 21, with 121 draws.
Including rapid/exhibition games: Garry Kasparov beat Anatoly Karpov 39 to 25, with 129 draws.
<And Fischer said Morphy was in a class by himself. And other say this of Muhammed Ali and of Pele Messi, Rod Laver or Pavlo Nurmi. This is a pleasant topic for long winternights.>
Not at all. The point was how Korchnoi viewed Fischer as whether on-the-board problems would emerge if Korchnoi emerged as the challenger to Fischer. Not what others say, not what Fischer said about Morphy or how Fischer viewed Morphy. |
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| Dec-18-21 | | saturn2: <Allanur The point was how Korchnoi viewed Fischer as whether on-the-board problems would emerge if Korchnoi emerged as the challenger to Fischer.> That was the point of and interview made in 2015? |
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| Dec-18-21 | | Allanur: <That was the point of and interview made in 2015?>
Yes, as 2015 is AFTER the moment Fischer called Korchnoi among "the lowest dogs around". |
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Dec-18-21
| | harrylime: BOBBY against the WORLD
BOBBY won. |
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| Jan-13-22 | | DarthStapler: I like how it says "Sorry, no games at this time", as if there could be games added later. |
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Jan-13-22
| | MissScarlett: Think about how Staunton - Morphy Match (1858) is feeling. |
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Jan-14-22
| | Dionysius1: BOBBY won??? As far as I can see, Bobby retreated with his tail between his legs, defeated by something none of the rest of us could see! |
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| Jun-20-22 | | CapablancaDisciple: <<I like how it says "Sorry, no games at this time", as if there could be games added later.>> It is a way of maintaining faith that in another life we might finally see those games... |
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| Jun-20-22 | | Knightmare07: Maybe someone from a parallel universe will upload the games... who knows. |
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| Apr-29-23 | | CapablancaDisciple: Whether it was because of mental illness or lack of motivation or cowardice, Fischer simply did not want to play Karpov. His goal was always to become World Champion, he probably never thought what would happen afterwards. Seeing how cold, strong, energetic the new challenger was, must have really frightened him. Karpov was simply on a whole different level than anyone Fischer had ever faced, and facing that python-like style in a WCC was something else entirely. Think about it, had the challenger been anyone but Karpov, would Fischer still have made the same demands? Would he still not have played? Had he really thought he were capable of beating Karpov, he would have agreed to play. FIDE did not depose him of anything, in fact they tried to make the match happen as much as possible agreeing to almost all of Fischer's demands. He simply backed out. |
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| Apr-29-23 | | Petrosianic: <CapablancaDisciple>: <Whether it was because of mental illness or lack of motivation or cowardice, Fischer simply did not want to play Karpov.> Untrue. He didn't want to play <anybody>. Except possibly Spassky. It may not be a complete coincidence that Fischer resigned his title a month after Spassky was eliminated from the Candidates. This is no longer in doubt. At the time people thought that Fischer was only giving up the title in order to play outside of FIDE, but that question was settled in the negative decades ago. But somehow, people still act like it's unclear. You can claim Fischer was afraid of Karpov, but you can't claim he was afraid of Gligoric or Quinteros. Yet he ducked out on matches with them too. Clearly it's not one specific person he was avoiding. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 139 OF 139 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
In 1974, Fischer's challenger was decided: he was an emerging Russian chess superstar,
