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| Jun-27-04 | | clocked: this is not best play, just an example
39.e6 Nf4 40.Qa2 Qe5 41.Rc1 Re8 42.Qa4 Qe3! another is 39.Nd7 Nf4 40.Ra2 Qd4 both of these show the threat of Ne2. However it may be that white still wins after giving up the exchange. Possibly the threat was enough to convince white of the draw. |
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Jun-28-04
 | | ray keene: thank you-i am off to paris for four days-cd someone kindly run the final position as given thru a computer to see what turns up? hope to resume discussion on my return. |
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| Jun-28-04 | | misguidedaggression: Just curious, what's wrong with 24.Nd6? |
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Jun-28-04
 | | Chessical: <Misguidedaggression> Your <24.Nd6> seeme to safely win the exchange, and be more effective than Keres' actual move. It seems strange that two great tactical players could have missed this trick; especially as Keres had manoeuvered his N on his previous two moves, and Alekhine had just moved his R back to a dangerous square.
Perhaps there is something so deep that only a GM can see it, but I rather doubt it. |
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Jun-28-04
 | | Honza Cervenka: In final position after 39.e6 Nf4 40.Rg1 Qe5 I don't see anything better than 41.Re1 Qb2 42.Rg1 Qe5 etc. Also 39.e6 Nf4 40.Qa2 Qe5 41.Rc1 Re8 42.Qa4 Qe3 looks okay for black. Maybe that was the reason why the draw was agreed there, although white can play other moves, for example 39.Nd3 or 39.Nd7. But I wonder why not Nd6 in moves 24, 25 or 26. |
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| Jun-28-04 | | misguidedaggression: I ran it through my computer, but I only have an older version of chessmaster. It seems safe enough,though. Maybe they both just missed it. But I doubt that, I saw it almost instantly and I'm not that good. Wonder what crafty has to say about this. |
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| Jun-28-04 | | crafty: 39. ♘d3 ♕e2 40. ♕a6 c5 41. ♖e1 ♕d2 42. ♖g1  (eval 1.27; depth 14 ply; 1000M nodes) |
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| Jun-28-04 | | misguidedaggression: Thanks crafty, but actually I was talking about 24.Nd6 which should win the exchange. In my opinion, white's 24th-26th moves are more baffling than the draw at the end. |
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Jul-14-04
| | ray keene: 23...rcf8 NOT rf7
altho many sources give the move order we have above i am convinced that this game only makes sense if blacks 23rd move is rcf8. that wd explain whites defensive f3 which is otherwise incomprehensible-with that correction all subsequent moves are legal and sensible. is it likely that two such tactical geniuses as alekhine and keres wd overlook the winning coup nd6 for so long. if i am right this is a highly important correction to an otherwise flawed and frequently published record of a game between two of the titans!! |
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| Jul-14-04 | | Legend: Yes, it should be 23...Rcf8 not Rf7. I looked up this game in the book "Paul Keres: Photographs and Games" , which is collection of all Keres` games and there it was 23...Rcf8. |
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| Jul-14-04 | | Lawrence: Mr. Keene, you must mean "unlikely." |
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| Jul-14-04 | | beenthere240: Is there any merit to 35. Rxa5? |
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| Jul-14-04 | | acirce: Except that it loses your king. |
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| Jul-14-04 | | WMD: <Mr. Keene, you must mean "unlikely."> No, but he omitted the rhetorical question mark. |
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| Jul-14-04 | | beenthere240: Sorry 36. Rxa5 |
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| Jul-14-04 | | beenthere240: The point is that since the black rook can't recapture (weak back rank), white will win the a and b pawns while protecting the white b pawn. |
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| Jul-14-04 | | WMD: Rxa5 allows Black a perpetual by unprotecting his own weak back rank. A sample line runs 36.Rxa5 Rf8 37.Qc6 Qd1+ 38.Kh2 Ne3 39.Ne6 Nf1+ 48.Kh1 Ne3+. |
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Jul-14-04
| | ray keene: <legend> an excellent piece of historical cleansing of the archives achieved today-the massive verhoeven skinner book of every game played by alekhine also gives the wrong version!! delighted to see we now have the right version. well done all round and also to <misguidedaggression> who first spotted the anomaly of the soi-disant -missed - nd6. " why ,so. now have we done a good day's work ." richard III act 2 scene 1.rescuing an alekhine keres score gives me a very warm feeling. |
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| Jul-14-04 | | WMD: <altho many sources give the move order we have above i am convinced that this game only makes sense if blacks 23rd move is rcf8.> Nice work. Shall I inform Edward Winter or will you? |
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| Jul-14-04 | | beenthere240: Thanks WMD. I didn't see that the knight could force a perpetual check. |
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Jul-14-04
| | ray keene: <wmd> i dont mind doing it-how does one get in touch with him-i rarely follow his work .by the way-did you get my question about your chess phd? you seem extraordinarily well informed with all sorts of reference matter at your fingertips-eg the material on the wanted paedophile brian eley-i wd not have known where to find that-but-then again- i dont read kingpin either. |
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| Jul-14-04 | | Calli: I notice that there are three AA-Keres games from Salzburg 1943. What is the reason for the third game? Was it a playoff or just an offhand contest? Thought I would ask, since everyone has his reference materials out. |
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| Jul-14-04 | | Lawrence: I have the impression that <WMD> is extraordinarily well informed about EVERYTHING! <WMD>, thanks for that correction, I read the sentence the wrong way round. Ummmm.....did you say Edward Winter? |
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| Jul-14-04 | | WMD: <<wmd> i dont mind doing it-how does one get in touch with him-i rarely follow his work .> Try him by email at chessnotes@chesscafe.com. See his Chess Notes page at:
http://www.chesscafe.com/winter/win....
Who knows, if you struck up a friendly correspondence with him, he might give you an easier time in future. Or would that be too cynical a ploy? <you seem extraordinarily well informed with all sorts of reference matter at your fingertips> I would have replied earlier, but was a bit down about Mickey's defeat. Chess is one of my few interests, which means I can follow it closely. Only concerned about chess politics to the extent that they intrude onto the game itself. Impressed by Kavalek's observation regarding Kasparov, "When the truth is inconvenient for him he has been known to resort to 'fables', and to become angry when they are revealed for what they are." |
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| Jul-14-04 | | Legend: <Calli: I notice that there are three AA-Keres games from Salzburg 1943. What is the reason for the third game? Was it a playoff or just an offhand contest?> Thanks for pointing that out, the game where Alekhine won in 51 moves, is actually from Salzburg 1942 not `43! |
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