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Apr-18-05 | | RookFile: This is an absolutely remarkable
game. To understand why, look at
this game:
Euwe vs Capablanca, 1931
So, the point is: in this previous
game, Euwe had set a cute trap for
Capablanca, and succeeded in winning
the exchange against the great Cuban.
But with his amazing defensive skill,
Capablanca had pulled out the draw.
So now we know why this was an
amazing game. The very next time
Capablanca had black, he repeated
the line! This is in effect, giving
Euwe, one of the world's leading
players, the odds of "exhange" and
move -- and still holding the draw!
This is comparable to Morphy's giving
masters of his day the odds of knight! |
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Apr-18-05 | | RookFile: Games like this remind us that
Capablanca was the toughest man
of all to win a won game against. |
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Apr-18-05 | | whatthefat: You can't say black didn't have compensation for the exchange though - 2 pawns and a reasonable initiative. It looks even to me. I don't know what this 'giving odds' business is all about... |
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Apr-18-05 | | RookFile: No, it was known even in 1931 that
White should win by force. Obviously
it isn't easy, and the exact winning
procedure wasn't discovered until
after the Euwe - Capablanca match
was over. Found this web site, this
deals with one of the key positions.
http://members.aol.com/brigosling/p... |
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Apr-18-05 | | RookFile: The thing about these types of games
is: It's really rook versus knight.
The 1 or 2 pawns black gets in
these Euwe vs. Capablanca games
don't really count unless Capa
can make them into queening threats.
Something like Deep Blue would look
at this and spit out a way for White
to start munching those pawns, while
the white king is able to stave off
checkmate.
Very hard for you and me and a lot
of humans, obviously to work this
out over the board. |
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Apr-18-05 | | paladin at large: Thanks , <RookFile> this is a very interesting circumstance. |
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Oct-21-06 | | RookFile: Never before, nor since, has a grandmaster ever deliberately given a world top 10 player <exchange and move odds> as Capablanca deliberately did in this game on MOVE 9!!! |
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Oct-22-06 | | CapablancaFan: In THIS game, I believe I can make the arguement that Capa's queen knight was well worth the price of that rook. This knight took over this game. Quite naturally, in the end, Euwe was all too happy to accept the draw! |
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Oct-22-06 | | paladin at large: To my knowledge, Capablanca did not annotate any of his games from the Euwe match. Does anyone know if Euwe did? |
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Oct-22-06 | | Kaspablanca: I wonder why Euwe dindt get along with Capablanca. |
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Oct-22-06
 | | Gypsy: <Kaspablanca: I wonder why Euwe dindt get along with Capablanca.> Did he? In later years, Euwe refused to play in tournaments with Alekhine (eg., Saltzburg 1942) for apparently very strong ethical reasons. |
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Oct-22-06 | | Plato: <RookFile>'s blind worship of Capablanca leads to some unfortunate lies. So that unsuspecting readers don't get the wrong idea, let me pick apart the myths he spins regarding this game: <So now we know why this was an amazing game. The very next time Capablanca had black, he repeated the line!> That's because he apparently felt the line gave Black adequate compensation to hold the draw, which is the exact same reason that he played the line the first time. The "Monticelli trap" had already been played in two master-level games in 1926, resulting in one win for white and one win for Black. <This is in effect, giving Euwe, one of the world's leading players, the odds of "exhange" and move -- and still holding the draw!This is comparable to Morphy's giving masters of his day the odds of knight> First of all let's be very clear about this move-odds nonsense. Giving an opponent move-odds means that, when playing Black, you give him TWO free moves to start the game. If Capablanca gave Euwe move-odds in this game, then so does everyone when they play Black. As for "exchange-odds," that would be if one player gives the other player the odds of rook for minor piece <without any compensation.> Capablanca was not "giving" Euwe those odds. It's not "exchange-odds" when you get an extra pawn (as in this game) or two (as in the previous one), and certainly not when you also get some positional compensation to boot. The most absurd statement in that comment, however, is comparing this to Morphy giving the masters of his day the odds of a knight. When Morphy started a game without his queen's knight, he obviously had no compensation for the lack of material (not to mention the fact that a knight is worth more than the exchange, but that's besides the point!). He did not receive material compensation (one or two pawns) nor positional compensation (strong initiative). I defy <RookFile> to give a single reputable source verifying what he claims -- that Capablanca willingly gave Euwe free odds, just to show that he could toy with his opponent. I'm willing to bet money that he will not find any such source, neither from Capablanca, nor from Euwe, from any other Grandmaster annotating the game. Because it's just not true. |
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Oct-22-06 | | Plato: <No, it was known even in 1931 that White should win by force. Obviously it isn't easy, and the exact winning procedure wasn't discovered until after the Euwe - Capablanca match was over.> Apparently some world-class Grandmasters STILL don't know about the exact winning procedure! :P Read on: This very line has been played for Black by such Grandmasters such as Kortchnoi, Andersson, Larsen, Azmaiparashvili, Seirawan, Christiansen and others ... including Postny, used it in his game at Aeroflot just last year against Aronian! In another grandmaster battle from last year (Psakhis-Marin, 25th Ann Champions, 2005), Black went in for this line, and the Russian-Israeli GM playing White opted for 12.Nxe4 instead of 12.Qxe4, thus avoiding the win of the exchange!! Why do you think this was? Did he not see that he could win the exchange in one more move? Was he angry that Marin was attempting to give him "exchange and move odds" ?! Give me a break :P Former Kasparov trainer GM Yuri Dokhoian also avoided the "free odds" when he played 10.Qxc3 at the USSR-ch in 1985. Psakhis played this move as well. As did Argentinian GM Ariel Sorin... I guess they all decided that they didn't want to get free "exchange and move odds," or maybe they weren't strong enough to see the two-move combination. The fact is that there are some Grandmasters (apparently Capablanca was one of them) who feel that Black gets enough compensation in this line. A few Grandmasters playing White also feel this way and, given the chance to play the Monticelli trap, they avoid it altogether. |
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Oct-22-06 | | Plato: <Found this web site, this deals with one of the key positions. http://members.aol.com/brigosling/p... > Excuse me? That website deals with a key ENDGAME position from move 45, in which Euwe could have won with 45.h4! instead of 45.Ra3. You use this "key position" as evidence that the "exact winning method" has been discovered for White ... Do you honestly think there were no alternatives for Black in the 30 moves between the opening (up to 15.Rd1) and move 45? The exact winning method that is demonstrated on that webpage is a winning method from the endgame; obviously Black can play differently before that point, which is why, as stated in my previous post, strong Grandmasters have played and continue to play this line even today. <Never before, nor since, has a grandmaster ever deliberately given a world top 10 player <exchange and move odds> as Capablanca deliberately did in this game on MOVE 9!!!> I'm getting tired of this drivel. First of all this exact same line, as noted above, was used by Ulf Andersson against Portisch in 1983 (according to chessmetrics.com, Portisch was a top-five player at the time). It was also used last year by GM Postny against none other than Aronian. I have already explained in a previous post how this game doesn't amount to anything even close to giving an opponent such odds. And if it did, it would be very <odd> indeed that the line continues getting played by top GMs, and that some GMs avoid it altogether with <White>! As if more proof is needed, input two positions for analysis by a strong computer engine (Fritz, Rybka, Junior, Shredder, whatever). In the first position, give White the odds of a move (i.e., 1.e4 or 1.d4 is already played and it's White to move) and the exchange (i.e., remove Black's queen's rook and White's queen's knight). Look at the evaluation. Now examine the evaluation after 13.Qxa8 in this game. I think you'll notice a bit of a disparity. "Exchange and move odds" indeed! |
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Oct-22-06
 | | keypusher: Here is the Portisch vs Ulf Andersson, 1983 game. Very interesting--Andersson seems to have had no difficultly holding. |
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Oct-23-06 | | RookFile: Well, your tone of voice needs work, Plato. Nevertheless, your points appear to be quite correct. Portisch was certainly 2650 strength then, minimum. So, thank you for the correction. |
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Oct-23-06 | | whatthefat: <Plato>
Thank you for setting that straight. Don't even begin to think you'll change <RookFile>'s opinions though. |
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Oct-23-06 | | paladin at large: <Plato> Thanks for your interesting points on the history of this line. What remains in these examples is a further demonstration of Capablanca's remarkable feel for position. One day Euwe says, in effect, "I am going to beat you by winning the exchange-" Capa says "no you are not," and the next day, Euwe: "Oh, yes, I am!" Capa: "Oh, no, you are not! " .n.b. decades later, Euwe wrote "Capablanca had no peer position play". |
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Oct-23-06 | | paladin at large: ...no peer in position play....
<Kaspablanca><I wonder why Euwe dindt get along with Capablanca.> I don't know of any specific reason. It may have simply been the heat of competition at the top. Euwe behaved badly during a game Capablanca had with Flohr but I do not know if there was anything personal which preceded that. |
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Oct-23-06 | | Karpova: <paladin at large> what did euwe during that game? |
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Oct-23-06 | | paladin at large: <Karpova> See the kibitzing on this game: Flohr vs Capablanca, 1936 |
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Oct-24-06 | | Karpova: <paladin at large> thanks for the link!
Really unfair behaviour from Euwe. I had expected more than this.
But why didn't he like Capablanca? |
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Oct-24-06 | | paladin at large: <Karpova> Euwe got along well with Flohr, if I am not mistaken, but I do not recall where I read something in that vein. At Nottingham 1936, there was hot competition for the tournament lead and Capablanca, who eventually shared 1st with Botvinnik, was a threat to Euwe, who was then world champion. Flohr, by contrast, was not a threat to finish high in the tournament. (five WCs, -past,present,future- at Nottingham). |
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Oct-24-06 | | Karpova: <paladin at large> interesting information! good to know that euwe's dirty trick didn't pay off! |
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Oct-24-06 | | paladin at large: <Karpova> Well, not exactly. Capablanca blundered a piece amidst all the jabbering and lost the game - his only loss in 1936. Apart from this incident, I am not aware of any feuding between the two. Capablanca was congratulatory when Euwe beat Alekhine in 1935, not surprising, of course. |
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