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Deep Blue (Computer) vs Garry Kasparov
"Tangled Up in Blue" (game of the day Oct-16-2016)
IBM Man-Machine (1997), New York, NY USA, rd 6, May-11
Caro-Kann Defense: Karpov. Modern Variation (B17)  ·  1-0

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 7 OF 16 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-12-05  RookFile: It's tempting to say that allowing
8. Nxe6 was a blunder, or Kasparov
deliberately threw this game, etc.
Looking through the lens of history,
we can say: Nxe6 is just too strong.

However, that is NOT the way the chess
world viewed this in the 1990's.
The line was unclear. In black's favor is one forgotten detail: his extra knight. Kasparov may have had the
view that this line was a perfect way to
take advantage of the fact that normal rules
of evaluation sometimes don't apply. And black in fact won won games during this time. Watch
here as a player of unquestioned strength loses with the white pieces:

Wolff vs Granda-Zuniga, 1992

Sep-12-05  alexandrovm: <However, that is NOT the way the chess world viewed this in the 1990's.
The line was unclear. In black's favor is one forgotten detail: his extra knight. Kasparov may have had the view that this line was a perfect way to
take advantage of the fact that normal rules
of evaluation sometimes don't apply.>
Nice statement. Anyhow many comentators at the time where this game took place, saw black's continuation as a blunder (at first they thoght that black had prepered something but later realized that Kasparov blundered badly). Also at the time of this game Kasparov started to shake his head, and make a melodrama when he saw what he has just made. It was a honest blunder for sure.
Sep-12-05  RookFile: Sure, we all know Kasparov did cart wheels on the stage, but did he do them immediately after 8. Nxe6,
or later in the game?
Sep-12-05  acirce: <RookFile> is speaking nonsense as usual. Seirawan's first reaction, doing the live coverage, was saying Kasparov had blundered by accidentally playing the moves in the wrong order (..h6 one move later is the main line). Just an example. 7..h6 WAS considered a mistake back then.

There are a couple of plausible explanations to why Kasparov may have intentionally played a move he knew very well to be objectively bad - Feng-Hsiung Hsu has a couple of theories in "Behind Deep Blue":

<So why did Garry play the move? Black's position was generally considered difficult at best after the knight sacrifice. This is true in games played by human players, but it is not true in games played between computers and human players. The commercial chess programs apparently had serious problems avoiding losing the game as White! Several Grandmasters had tried playing the Black side of the game positions against the top commercial chess programs and were able to win every single game. This fact did not come out until well after the match, but by then the media had moved on to other stories. What Garry played in game six on move seven was a very risky anti-computer chess move.

(...)

Several of the top commercial chess programs at the time were explicitly prohibited in their opening books from playing the knight sacrifice that Deep Blue played. So, apparently, lots of the commercial chess programmers knew that their programs could not play the sacrificial line. There were some rumors during the match that Garry thought Deep Blue was using the opening book of one of the commercial chess programs, so it was conceivable that he was expecting Deep Blue to retreat its knight as the other programs did.

(...)

So there were lots of potential reasons to select the move 7..h6. First, Deep Blue might just retreat the knight. In this case, Garry would have equalized very easily. Second, Deep Blue might not "understand" how to attack. Then, Garry would have won the game and become the toast of the human race...>

I have no idea if this was the reason but it would fit the pattern of Garry vastly underestimating the power of computer chess.

Sep-12-05  RookFile: Well, acirce, despite the harsh tone
you directed at me, what you actually
wrote in red agrees with what I said:

Computers at the time following
their normal rules of evaluation
could not properly evaluate Nxe6.
And GM Wolff had lost as white.
So, Seirawann thought black had
blundered, but apparently GM Timoscenko had deliberatly made the same 'blunder' the year before and
had the better half of a draw.

Perhaps Kasparov was looking at how
the computer had played this line,
only the year before this game was
played:

[Event "Jena m"]
[Site "Jena"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Comp Double Fritz/Boss PP"]
[Black "Timoscenko,Gennadij"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "B17"]
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7 5.Ng5 Ngf6 6.Bd3 e6 7.N1f3 h6 8.Nxe6 Qe7 9.0-0 fxe6 10.Bg6+ Kd8 11.Bf4 Nd5 12.Bg3 Qb4 13.Qb1 Ne7 14.c3 Qa5 15.Bh4 Kc7 16.Bg3+ Kd8 17.Bh4 Kc7 18.b4 Qd5 19.Bg3+ Kd8 20.Bc2 Qh5 21.Re1 Nf5 22.Bf4 Nh4 23.Nxh4 Qxh4 24.Bg3 Qf6 25.b5 c5 26.Qb3 Nb6 27.dxc5 Bxc5 28.Rad1+ Ke8 29.a4 Rf8 30.Kh1 Kf7 31.Re5 Qe7 32.a5 Nd7 33.Bg6+ Kxg6 34.Rxe6+ Qxe6 35.Qxe6+ Nf6 36.Qe5 b6 37.Bh4 Ng4 38.Qc7 Bf5 39.f3 Ne3 40.Re1 Kh7 41.Bg3 Rfe8 42.Qb7 Rad8 43.Qxa7 Ra8 44.Qf7 Re7 45.Qxe7 Bxe7 46.axb6 Bc8 47.Rxe3 Bc5 48.Re1 Bxb6 49.h4 Ra3 50.Kh2 Bc5 1/2

Sep-12-05  acirce: I was just opposing your claim that 7..h6 was not considered a serious mistake. I agree that Kasparov was probably aware of games like that one. Just like the nonsense about game 2 shows, he just didn't realize how far ahead of its time Deep Blue really was.
Sep-12-05  RookFile: It comes back to the old idea of
playing the man vs. playing the board.
Somebody like Steinitz played the
board religously. On the other hand,
Lasker would play the man, in the sense of selecting positions he knew his opponent was uncomfortable with.

In this case, we have a new dimension:
not playing the man, but playing the computer. Kasparov did underestimate the computer.

The scary thing is, as computers get
stronger and stronger, a lot of their
decisions in long range middlegames
closely resemble those of the strongest humans. It seems, there is no long a sanctury of certain positions a human can hide out in.

I have been successful at beating
Fritz, at full strength, playing the
Caro-Kann. The time control was:
40/2, 20/1, then 30 minutes for the
whole game. The game started:
(I have black)

1. e4 c6
2. d4 d5
3. e5 e6
4. Nf3 b6
5. Be2 Ba6

So, I equalized without too much
difficulty. Then, the computer
rejected my numerous draw offers,
and actually lost on time on move
252! (I'll spare you the details...)

Next time I tried this against Fritz,
it showed it has learned from the
errors of its ways, and played for
an early c4. I'm not sure if this
is the best approach, I'd expect
f4 and f5, but it still got a postion
where it could outcalculate me, and
won easily.

Sep-12-05  alexandrovm: Thanks for the feedback guys. About Kasparov's reaction, he did react badly on move 7, as stated in Yasser's pdf article. More on this: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/yaz13...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_B...
Sep-12-05  alexandrovm: He clearly considers that move a mistake, as stated here: http://www.chesscorner.com/games/de...
Sep-12-05  alexandrovm: " I am sorry about my decision to play 7...h6. I simply didn't realize what I was doing when I played the move. It was a big mistake, and it shows the mood I was in..." Garry Kasparov.
Sep-12-05  RookFile: Well, there you have it, the verdict is in. Kasparov made a mistake, and got smashed. Thanks for the article, alexandrovm. The commentary is really
quite informative.
Sep-12-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: Somewhere on this site is commentary by a guy who plays 7...h6 and has done well with it, but I can't find it.
Sep-12-05  patzer2: So to catch up on Opening Theory, Sierawan in the Chess Cafe article above considers 7...h6?! dubious, while Kasparov says it is an outright blunder. The correct move according to Kasparov is 7...Bd6, which is now the most popular move in GM and strong amateur circles, as in for example Black's draws and a win this year in Nijboer vs Bologan, 2005, Svidler vs Bologan, 2005 and Navara vs Karpov, 2005. However, White has had some success against 7. Bd6, winning 34% to 19% for Black in the OE's current database of 219 games, most notably this year being White's win in Kramnik vs Ponomariov, 2005 (though Black missed a good chance to equalize there).

As to the possibility 8...exf6, Sierawan in the Chess Base article sited above, indicates he thinks after the dubious 7...h6?! (Sierawan also prefers 7...Bd6) that 8...exf6 is the move Kasparov should have made instead of 8...Qe7 (which in the Chess Cafe article in 1997 Sierawan labeled (?) as a mistake. I ran it to 17 depth on Fritz 8 and the program came up with 8...fxe6 9. Bg6+ Ke7 10. 0-0 Qc7 11. Re1 Kd8 12. c4 Bd6 13. a3 b6 14. c5 Be7 15. Bf7 Bb7 = when White seems to have sufficient compensation for the sacrificed piece in a difficult position for both sides.

My own thought that it is a moot point as to the merits of 8...exf6 versus 8...Qe7, since 7...Bd6 gives Black better chances with a much more defendable position, especially since the GMs who play this line prefer it over the difficult task of defending White's long-range attack after 7...h6?! 8. Nxe6!?

Sep-12-05  kevin86: Nineteen move! Boy,Deep Blue handed Kaspy his lunch on this day!!

Revenge of the machines!!!

Sep-12-05  EmperorAtahualpa: <Sneaky: Because the king looks even stupider of e7 than it does on d8.>

Is that supposed to be funny?

Sep-12-05  patzer2: Here's a Master level game won using the 8...Qe7 line in 2005 (Suttgart GER) by Black in Zaragotski (2335) versus Dudek (2252) from a search on http://www.chesslab.com :

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5. Ng5 Ngf6 6. Bd3 e6 7. N1f3 h6 8. Nxe6 Qe7 9. O-O fxe6 10. Bg6+ Kd8 11. Re1 Qd6 12. c4 Qc7 13. g3 Bb4 14. Bf4 Qa5 15. Re2 Nf8 16. Re5 Nxg6 17. Rxa5 Bxa5 18. Bd6 Bc7 19. Bxc7+ Kxc7 20. Qd3 Ne7 21. Qe3 b6 22. Re1 Rd8 23. Qf4+ Kb7 24. Ne5 Rf8 25. Qf3 Bd7 26. Qa3 Nf5 27. Nxd7 Nxd7 28. Rxe6 Rae8 29. d5 Rxe6 30. dxe6 Nc5 31. Qf3 Nxe6 32. Qe4 Nfd4 33. f4 Rf7 34. b4 Rf5 35. Kg2 a5 36. b5 Rc5 37. bxc6+ Kc7 38. g4 g5 39. f5 Nf4+ 40. Kf2 Rxc4 41. Qe7+ Kxc6 42. Qf6+ Kc5 43. Qe5+ Nd5 44. Qe8 Rc2+ 45. Kg1 Nf3+ 46. Kf1 Kd4 47. Qa4+ Rc4 48. Qd1+ Ke3 49. Kg2 Nd4 50. Qg1+ Ke4 51. Qe1+ Kf4 52. Qd2+ Kxg4 53. h3+ Kh4 54. Kf1 Nxf5 55. Qf2+ Ng3+ 56. Kg2 Nf4+ 57. Kh2 Rc3 58. Qe1 Rc2+ 0-1.

Sep-12-05  patzer2: here's a master level game won using the 8...fxe6 line in 2004 (Serpukhov, RUS) by Black in Ovstrovskiy A. 2297 versus Dubukin, Ilya 2431 from http://www.chesslab.com:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5. Ng5 Ngf6 6. Bd3 e6 7. N1f3 h6 8. Nxe6 fxe6 9. Bg6+ Ke7 10. O-O Qc7 11. Re1 Kd8 12. c4 Bb4 13. Re2 Rf8 14. Ne5 Nxe5 15. dxe5+ Nd7 16. Be3 b6 17. f4 Ba6 18. Rc1 Be7 19. Rd2 Kc8 20. Qg4 Bb4 21. Rdd1 Kb8 22. a3 Be7 23. b4 Bc8 24. c5 b5 25. a4 a6 26. a5 Kb7 27. Be4 g5 28. Rd6 Nb8 29. fxg5 hxg5 30. Qd1 Bd7 31. Qd4 Kc8 32. Qd2 Qd8 33. Rd3 Ra7 34. Rd1 Rf7 35. Qe2 Qh8 36. Bd4 Rf4 37. Rh3 Qf8 38. g3 Rf7 39. Qg4 Rc7 40. Bg6 Rg7 41. Rf1 Qg8 42. Be4 Be8 43. Rh6 Bg6 44. Qh3 g4 45. Qxg4 Bxe4 46. Qxe4 Rg4 47. Rh8 Rxe4 48. Rxg8+ Kb7 49. Bc3 Nd7 50. Rf4 Re3 51. Bd4 Rb3 52. Re8 Bg5 0-1

Sep-12-05  patzer2: Also see the game Wolff vs Granda-Zuniga, 1992, mentioned by <Rookfile> above for another impressive victory by a very strong GM playing as Black in the 8...fxe6 line.

For players with a temperament like Lasker (who loved to play lines with a bad reputation, like 7...h6?!, to defend them well and frustrate his opponents), going against the grain and playing 7...h6?! 8. Nxe6 fxe6!? might make for a good surprise weapon. Certainly it will sharpen your defensive skills studying the line.

Sep-12-05  kvcs: <Gosh, where did the Chessplayers go???????>

There exist at <chessgames.com> several groups of individuals. Two of these groups are: CHESSPLAYERs [CPs] and CHESS-non-PLAYERs [CNPs]. The CPs can be numbered in the tens; the CNPs are numbered in the 1000s.

If DEEPest BLUest won this game, what, almost eight years ago, where is the SOFTWARE program? Where are the results of other DEEPerEST BLUerEST vs ANY-GREAT-OTHER-CHESSPLAYER results? Why is DEEPerESTer BLUE-AS-BLUE-CAN-BE not listed at SSDF [Svenska schackdatorföreningen---the Swedish Chess Computer Association]: http://web.telia.com/~u85924109/ssd... *1* CPs understand this; CNPs do not!

IBM set out to promote its RS/6000 server and chose Chess to accomplish this task. One game does not a CHAMPION make! For whatever reason that KASPAROV blundered, IBM quit when it was ahead. CPs understand this; CNPs do not!

Interested individuals may wish to visit these URLs:

http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/050811/0929... *2*
http://www.computerhistory.org/abou... *3* http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail... *4*

Full URL citations:
*1* http://web.telia.com/
~u85924109/ssdf/rlwww052.txt
*2* http://biz.yahoo.com/
iw/050811/092966.html
*3* http://www.computerhistory.org/
about/press_relations/releases/20050817_chess/
*4* http://www.chessbase.com/
newsdetail.asp?newsid=2573

CPs will check out these URLs, and be happy to have the FULL ones when the abbreviated become broken; CNPs don't understand what they just read!

Chessically speaking,...just a thought!
Molly S, KVCS Chess Correspondent

KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

Sep-12-05  lopium: I've read Kasparov interview about this match. In this game he said very few things, such as " I wasn't there at this moment".
Sep-12-05  blingice: Dude, <kvcs>, this isn't an insult, but all of your posts start out logical and then become a bunch of symbols, quotes, and observations that aren't very clear continuations of the conversation you are responding to. Not an insult, an observation.
Sep-12-05  patzer2: <kvcs> After reading your last post, I have three questions:

1. Are you asserting the IBM Big Blue team cheated during the match with Kasparov?

2. If so, what definitive proof do you have that such cheating took place?

3. If there is definitive proof the IBM Big Blue team cheated, then what difference does it make whether one is a player or non-player (such as the now retired Kasparov) as to whether one would find such actions deplorable?

Sep-12-05  patzer2: Your logic seems to be based on the premise that if IBM had a computer program capable of beating the world's best human player, then they would have kept the software program, played it against other computers and top human players, and registered it with the Swedish Chess Computer Association.

However, if in the absence of conclusive evidence otherwise one assumes Big Blue won in a fair contest, then I can think of one good reasons IBM might have scrapped the Big blue program after beating Kasparov. It's possible IBM didn't wish to risk a rematch against another business competitor or another human match, when a loss would hurt IBM's prestige and lower its stock price.

IBM at the time of the match was primarily a computer hardware company. Maintaining the expense of a computer software team which had already served its purpose (grab the good publicity from a win against Kasparov and run) might not have been considered a good business decision.

Sep-12-05  alexandrovm: <However, if in the absence of conclusive evidence otherwise one assumes Big Blue won in a fair contest, then I can think of one good reasons IBM might have scrapped the Big blue program after beating Kasparov. It's possible IBM didn't wish to risk a rematch against another business competitor or another human match, when a loss would hurt IBM's prestige and lower its stock price.> Interesting, but IBM did win at the end, right? And their stock price was great in that period of time. If they had such a great machine, keeping it working might have been better. More income, a <great machine>. I find rare that they dismanteled it so fast. really weird.
Sep-12-05  alexandrovm: nice points <kvcs>
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