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Tigran Petrosian vs Wolfgang Unzicker
West Germany - Soviet Union (1960), Hamburg FRG, rd 7, Aug-04
Queen's Gambit Declined: Traditional Variation (D30)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-14-05  drukenknight: Am I to understand that the last chance you see for Unzicker to save the game is move 9?

Also you didnt answer my question: Do you disagree that you can go back to a lost game, one move at a time and find a pt. where the game has not yet been lost?

Apr-14-05  aw1988: Listen. This commentary here is irritating me. Allow me to step in for a moment with some comments.

To Mr. Goldsby: please stop insulting others so frequently. Example: did you sleep through it? Were you drunk? (As posted earlier)

You as an adult should be able to converse without resorting to such immaturity.

"Most annotators are lazy! They don't want to work!"

Where do you get such a statistic? My betting is that many annotators are passionate about the game, and try to discover the truth; that is of course my personal feeling, and may not be true, but who then is to say that "most" annotators are lazy? If they are, then it is a minority, certainly not most.

Regarding your dislike of the modern school of annotation. What is this trying to prove? Listen, if a bad move is made, according to our knowledge of the game, if it is bad, it must worsen the position or whatever. They call it "bad" for a reason. I realize your policy is that annotators are too harsh on the players, since we only know the facts after 100 years or whatever of when the game was played. Well, what criticism have you? No annotator I know or have seen annotations to has ever said "Schlechter is a stupid moron, now everyone knows that this line is bad". No, they leave question marks, dictating objectivity.

drukenknight, this game is an exception. Unzicker only makes one real losing move, and that is indeed 11...b5, after which Petrosian slowly grinds him. If you are looking for something else, well, you're out of luck there.

Apr-14-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <aw1988>
Actually, you are wrong ... again. And ... about many things, as usual!

Also - I DON'T CARE - if a line of discussion annoys you!!!! If it bothers you too much, do what I do to people who annoy me - - - simply click on my 'handle' here and add me to your 'ignore' list. Otherwise - shut the ____ up! OK? (Also - the 'drunk' comment was a joke of sorts - a play on the gentleman's handle - THAT HE CHOSE!!)

And after Black's ninth move ... he my be lost. My analysis certainly seems to indicate this. It is also STRONGLY indicated by the results in the database as well.

Black's move of 11...b7-b5; is the FIRST pick of most strong chess programs. So you have to ask yourself: Is this move really that bad? Or is it the best chance for Black ... in an already difficult situation?

<drunkenknight>
Does this answer your question? (above)

Also - YES!! ---> BEFORE MOVE NINE ... I don't think Black is lost. After his ninth move, I am not sure ANY amount of heroic play will save his game. OK??

Apr-14-05  hintza: Someone really ought to post [Diagram?] here, but AJ has a point about the ignore list.
Apr-14-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Joshka: <LIFE Master AJ> First off, I'd like to commend you on your thorough notations to the many games you showcase on your site. I can only imagine the time and effort this takes. But as they say ...I'm sure it's a labor of love:-) Concerning this game with 9...cd5 You state that this move is book. Well in the database I have (chessbase8), there are only 2 references to this position when this game was played. Both games continued 9...ed5. Vukovic-Kindij 1946, 1-0 and Roessel-Farre Mallofre 1953, 1/2-1/2. So maybe this database is missing the many games that you state 9...cd5 was book? thanks again for your comments:-)
Apr-14-05  aw1988: I will not press the subject, but you are being far too sensitive. Please, show some sophistication.

Funny how I am "wrong as usual" when most of your kibitzes directed towards me have usually been positive. It took a few points, and suddenly I am "wrong as usual". I find this just a tad strange.

Apr-14-05  drukenknight: Losing move on move 9? Does anybody want to question that?

WHat about 38...QxQ creates a passed pawn but looks survivable.

Apr-14-05  aw1988: I don't think so, the rooks are too powerful.
Apr-15-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: 38...Qxb5? was adequately dealt with by Chernev in his book. It loses, and pretty badly too.
Apr-15-05  drukenknight: I think you should double check Chernev's line that you gave on that page.
Apr-15-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <dk> I did.
Apr-16-05  drukenknight: Re; 38...QxQ; cant black hold the endgame after:

38..Qxb5
39. axb5 a4
40. b6 Rad7
41. Naa5 Ra8
42. Rxd6 Rxd6
43. b7 Rf8
44. Nc6 Rxc6
45. Rxc6 Rb8
46. Rc7 Kf6
47. Kc2 e5
48. dxe5+ Kxe5
49. Rxf7 d4
50. exd4+ Kxd4
51. Rd7+ Ke4
52. Kd2

Apr-19-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <drunkenknight>

Your analysis was spotty and sub-standard.

The Chernev analysis.
38...Qxb5?; 39.axb5 a4!?; 40.b6 Rad7;
This is probably forced.

(Or: 40...Raa8?!; 41.b7 Rab8; 42.Na5, + -)

41.Na5 Ra8; 42.Rxd6! Rxd6; 43.b7 Rb8;
This is probably the most natural move.

< (Your line: 43...Rf8!?; 44.Nc6?!, ('?') Fritz clearly demonstrates that b3! is a much better move here. 44...Rxc6; 45.Rxc6 Rb8; 46.Rc7?,
Just plain silly. Any good program will confirm that Rb6 is the correct move. >

(Much better would be: 46.Rb6 b3; 47.Kc1 Kf6; 48.Kd2 Kf5; 49.f3! f6; 50.Kd3 e5!?; Black is nearly in zugawang. 51.Rb5 Ke6; 52.Kc3, "plus-slash-minus"
The win is boringly routine. See "The Encyclopedia of R+P Endgames," they have a position that virtually matches this one.)

< 46...Kf6; 47.Kc2 e5!?; 48.dxe5+ Kxe5; 49.Rxf7 d4?!; 50.exd4+!?, ('?!') Probably not the best. >

(Much better was: 50.Kd3!, - Fritz 8.0.)

< 50...Kxd4; 51.Rd7+ Ke4; 52.Kd2, " " Five different programs indicate that White is clearly better here, or "plus over a line." Are you saying Black should hold this?) >

The last of the Chernev analysis:
44.Rc8 Rd8; 45.Rxd8 Rxd8; 46.Nc6, "plus-slash-minus" and White is winning easily.

This does nothing to support your case, in fact it further proves what a bad move 38...QxQ/b5?; ('??') would be.

Apr-19-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: Your analysis was ... "not good."

I checked mine, (the analysis on my web page); with about half-a-dozen of the world's best and most strongest chess programs.

If you would like list, here are a few of the ones that I use. Here we go: ChessMaster 10th Edition; Fritz 8.0, (recommended!); Junior 9.0, Deep Junior, Hiarcs, and Shredder 9.0. (All of the programs on this list were purchased in the last 6-8 months.) I also have dozens of older programs (chess engines) - like Fritz 6.0, for example - that I use on occasion.

See my analysis on my page ... it is airtight ... because it was checked meticulously. I ALWAYS check my analysis with a computer. (Humans - even GM's - might miss a simple tactic. A good program never will!)

... it is my standard policy never to check work that was done without the aid of a computer. (If you are not willing to do the basic groundwork, and check your own analysis, I see no point in seriously considering it.)

Apr-20-05  drukenknight: How many computers does it take to decipher what you just said? Dont worry I'll just up my medication levels and figure it out...Hey what the heck is "b3 is a much better move..." What number is b3?
Apr-20-05  who: <most strongest>?
Apr-20-05  TheSlid: I remember a Mig Greengard article on capturing with the c pawn in such positions (black's ninth move). This is the link.

http://www.chessninja.com/whitebelt...

Mig makes it sound easy!

Apr-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: Here is a link to trainer Shaishin also condemming black's ninth move. <Infinity Circuit> posted it already on this thread, but it seemed worth repeating.

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/misha...

Apr-23-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <keypusher>
Thanks for the item and the link ... its nice to know that a respected chess trainer of Shashin's abilities agrees with me.

I think I annotated a game of his a while back ... although I could not put my finger on it when I went looking for it. (Maybe the web site has been deleted?)

Jul-26-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <Joshka> First off, an apology for missing your post. (A former student - in a private eamil to me - asked why I had done this.) I simply missed it.

Second, yes all book. My web page pretty much speaks for itself. The (old) Fritz "Power-Book" used to give this as the <best> choice ... although the brand-new version that I recently purchased, (May or June of 2005); shows 9...exd5 ('!') to be the number one choice.

For more information than this, please see the "Encyclopedia Of Chess Openings," brought to you by the same folks who put out the Informant. (In some cases, I have three or four editions of the same book.)

Jul-26-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <Joshka> Another thought along these lines ...

I used to have a very old book on the Queen's Gambit Declined. I lost it over the years, but I remember what was in it. (I studied this game - with a group - when I was stationed at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque, NM.)

The author said that 9...cxd5; was correct, "because Black maintains a symmetrical Pawn structure." (I remember that he did not quote this game anywhere in the book.)

Another book that gives a variation (and a comment along these lines), was I.A. Horowitz's book on the openings. ("Chess Openings, Theory and Practice.") And while this might seem like an ancient source, you have to remember that this game was played in 1960 ... back in the dark ages of chess. (Before chess programs, chess databases, and the explosion in chess book publishing that happened after Fischer beat Spassky ... way back in 1972.)

Jul-26-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <Joshka> "Email" was not spelled correctly in the first post.
Oct-27-05  ARTIN: Every move in a chess game IS either wrong or right (or equally wrong or right) as drukenknight showed in his argument. Anyone who disagrees with this goes against the most fundamental theorem in deterministic, finite game theory, known as Zermelo's Theorem.

A corollary of Zermelo's Theorem states:

For chess, one of the following three possibilities holds:

(i) White has a strategy which always wins.

(ii) White has a strategy which always at least draws, but no strategy as in (i).

(iii) Black has a strategy which always wins.

If you know some mathematics, the following website proves the theorem:

http://www.math.ucla.edu/~blasius/1...

Jan-31-06  Whitehat1963: Too bad this one wasn't played all the way through. Beautiful finish, beautiful game.
Feb-12-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  LIFE Master AJ: <Joshka>

Concerning your post on April 14, 2005.

I am not sure how many games this website contains, (now) ... I know that they add to it on a daily basis. (On the main page, it says over 370,000 games.)

To be honest, this is a small fraction, (of the possible total); when you consider another on-line database claims to have over 10 Million games. And the ChessBase "MEGA" database now comes with OVER THREE MILLION games!!!

My old database contained millions and millions of games, but I eventually just dumped it - as it had many doubles. Since last year, I purchased the "MEGA" database, but I also add the games from TWIC every week as well.

If you need a good, solid on-line db, then probably the best is the one by ChessBase. (http://www.chesslive.de/) I highly recommend it as well. (They also add to this database of chess games on a weekly basis.)

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