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Oct-01-21
 | | Williebob: <beatgiant>, I used CG's statistic, that is all - did not do any counting myself through the DB. Did you count Capa's professional losses, and if so, what did you find? |
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Oct-01-21
 | | beatgiant: <Williebob>
Capablanca was born in 1888 and turned 21 in 1909.Losses in serious events until 1909:
1 - E. Corzo match 1901
3 - J. Corzo match 1901
1 - Marshall match 1909
Total 5
Losses in serious events since 1910:
2 in 1911
4 in 1913
2 in 1914
1 in 1916
1 in 1924
2 in 1925
6 in 1927
2 in 1929
1 in 1930
1 in 1934
4 in 1935
1 in 1936
4 in 1938
Total 31
Grand total 5+31 = 36
Now, we could possibly increase it by a few by including certain exhibition type events against strong opponents, but even then I hardly see how it reaches as high as 49. The latter figure must be counting some casual games. |
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| Oct-02-21 | | RookFile: I have no doubt that when the math is done correctly, Capa emerges as the hardest professional player to defeat. |
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Oct-02-21
| | Williebob: <beatgiant>, <RookFile>, thank you for your further attention to the Capablanca question.
<RookFile>, I posted too quickly after seeing the "as an adult" qualifier on Capa's Wiki page. I simply assumed, having browsed quickly at Capa's early game scores, that the difference in losses must be attributed to his junior activity. Clearly, 49 losses is a questionable number; further clarification of Capa's early career is needed. I still believe that Capa's games from even age 13 (the match with Juan Corzo) are worth including in the career-wide stats, though perhaps Edward Winter would disagree. Winter would almost certainly include the 1909 match with Marshall as part of Capa's adult career, in any case. Prodigies are rare, and complicate the matter of "professional" activity - we see a 13 year old defeating Cuba's top player in a serious match. Corzo was not an amateur, to say the least.
I will however maintain that the math was done correctly - the data is incorrect! If we are interested in a stat that identifies the most unbeatable player, then the simple losses / total formula, with draws as good as wins, seems sufficient.
<beatgiant>, I intend to delve further into the subject of Capa's pro record over on his page, when I have some time. I found a game on 365chess that isn't in this DB, for example, from the Havana / MCC cable match I think; I will submit it ASAP. There are also apparently some early game scores that are missing or forever gone, though we seem to have primary sources for the results (Cuban Championship 1902).
I'd like to end this post with the continued assurance that Petrosian remains one of history's hardest players to beat - almost certainly top 3 by current calculations. |
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Oct-05-21
 | | kingscrusher: Petrosian Metaphors from Wiki are amusing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigra...
"A number of illustrative metaphors have been used to describe Petrosian's style of play. Harold C. Schonberg said that "playing him was like trying to put handcuffs on an eel. There was nothing to grip."[39] He has been described as a centipede lurking in the dark,[39] a tiger looking for the opportunity to pounce, a python who slowly squeezes his victims to death,[6] and as a crocodile who waits for hours to make a decisive strike.[47] Boris Spassky, who succeeded Petrosian as World Chess Champion, described his style of play as such: "Petrosian reminds me of a hedgehog. Just when you think you have caught him, he puts out his quills."[6]" Funny stuff. I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder in those metaphors. Spassky was out to attack him a lot of the time :) |
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Oct-06-21
| | kingscrusher: There may be a secret message encoded when Petrosian is black against 1.e4 which we can see in retrospect statistically: Repertoire Explorer: Tigran V Petrosian (black) I think it goes like this:
1.e4
c6 (I want to draw with you!)
Petrosian has 65% draws 21% wins
c5 (I want to crush you!)
Petrosian has 56% draws 35% wins
e6 (I may want to crush you!)
Petrosian has 59% draws 28% wins
Karpov mentioned in a Gibraltar interview something on the lines of "When Petrosian plays the Caro-Kann he is aiming to draw, but when I play the Caro-Kann I am aiming to win" |
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| Dec-06-21 | | Albertan: Why did Petrosan stop playing the Petroff?:
https://en.chessbase.com/post/why-d... |
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Dec-06-21
 | | plang: The Petroff did not really become popular until the late 90s - prior to that it was a relative rarity. |
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Dec-07-21
 | | 0ZeR0: <kingscrusher: Petrosian Metaphors from Wiki are amusing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigra...
"A number of illustrative metaphors have been used to describe Petrosian's style of play. Harold C. Schonberg said that "playing him was like trying to put handcuffs on an eel. There was nothing to grip."[39] He has been described as a centipede lurking in the dark,[39] a tiger looking for the opportunity to pounce, a python who slowly squeezes his victims to death,[6] and as a crocodile who waits for hours to make a decisive strike.[47] Boris Spassky, who succeeded Petrosian as World Chess Champion, described his style of play as such: "Petrosian reminds me of a hedgehog. Just when you think you have caught him, he puts out his quills."[6]" Funny stuff. I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder in those metaphors. Spassky was out to attack him a lot of the time :)> Highly amusing. As a side note Harold Schonberg was one of my favorite writers. He used to be the music critic for the New York Times. I highly recommend his book Grandmasters of Chess. His other books on classical music are great too. |
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| Mar-04-22 | | syracrophy: It's remarkable that The Tiger with his solid and prophylactic style has some of the most entertaining games were the King walks around the heat of the battle and survives. |
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May-04-22
 | | Joshka: I was fortunate to have the pleasure of playing in a simul against Tigran. I see that he was in the United States in 1978, but believe the simul I played in took place in the early 80's in Boston. Any one know the details better? thanks in advance Bruce |
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May-04-22
 | | Benzol: Joshka how did you get on ?
Did you record the gamescore by any chance ? |
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May-04-22
 | | perfidious: Petrosian gave a simul at the Boylston Chess Club in late February-early March of 1982. |
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May-04-22
| | 0ZeR0: <Joshka>
I too would be interested in seeing the gamescore if you still have it. I have great respect for Petrosian as a player and would like to see how you fared. |
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| May-09-22 | | Ulhumbrus: Fischer indicated during the early 1960s that Petrosian was the strongest player in the world then. Korchnoi said that most players- including perhaps most Soviet players - regarded Petrosian's style with contempt but Fischer alone amongst them evaluated Petrosian's style more accurately. Fischer said that he liked Petrosian's play more than that of Tal, Spassky or Botvinnik. This suggests that Fischer considered Petrosian's play to be more accurate or sounder than that of Tal, Spassky or Botvinnik. Perhaps Fischer considered Petrosian's play to be more in accordance with what Fischer evaluated the true state of balance of the position to be than the play of Tal, Spassky or Botvinnik. Possibly in comparison with Petrosian's play Fischer considered Tal's play to be less sound at times, Spassky's play to be too optimistic at times and Botvinnik's play to lack sufficient foresight at times. |
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May-11-22
| | 0ZeR0: <Ulhumbrus: Fischer indicated during the early 1960s that Petrosian was the strongest player in the world then... Fischer said that he liked Petrosian's play more than that of Tal, Spassky or Botvinnik.> That's interesting, especially the second one. Not that I don't believe you but what are the sources for these? |
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May-11-22
 | | HeMateMe: difficult to rank players from different eras. Carlsen has played a LOT of chess, played in more tournaments than Fischer or Spassky, absolutely more than Capablanca. The more you play, the more often you'll have a bad day and get a chess lesson. Especially when you factor in internet G30 tournaments. |
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May-11-22
| | 0ZeR0: <HMM>
That is certainly one of the key reasons why it's impractical to compare players of different eras. I like what Michael Jordan (a man who knew greatness probably as much as anyone ever has) had to say about greatness in basketball: <I believe greatness is an evolutionary process that changes and evolves era to era.> This of course can apply to most anything, including chess. |
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| May-11-22 | | Ulhumbrus: < 0ZeR0: <Ulhumbrus: Fischer indicated during the early 1960s that Petrosian was the strongest player in the world then... Fischer said that he liked Petrosian's play more than that of Tal, Spassky or Botvinnik.> That's interesting, especially the second one. Not that I don't believe you but what are the sources for these?> Korchnoi's remarks about Petrosian come from the earlier version of his book <Chess is my life> Batsford first paperback edition 1978, chapter 8, page 46, penultimate paragraph <...For years, chess masters regarded his inimitable style with contempt and fear...> Kasparov in his book <My great predecessors part III>, the book on Petrosian and Spassky, page 54, col 1 quotes Kotov saying that Fischer said <If Petrosian played more boldly, he would be the strongest player in the world> I suggest that Petrosian was indeed the strongest player in the world in the early 1960s from 1960 to 1963 and that Petrosian was at his peak during this period. I don't remember where I read that Fischer said that he liked the play of Petrosian more than that of Tal, Spassky or Botvinnik although he may have said it to Hort or to Gligorich. |
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May-11-22
| | perfidious: <0Zer0>, that is a most insightful quote from Jordan and one I had never seen. A bit of irony: the one time I saw Jordan play live, he made little impression (17 during a season in which his average was twice that), but teammate Horace Grant came through with a big game as Bulls crushed Knicks anyway. |
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May-11-22
| | 0ZeR0: <Ulhumbrus: < 0ZeR0: <Ulhumbrus: Fischer indicated during the early 1960s that Petrosian was the strongest player in the world then... Fischer said that he liked Petrosian's play more than that of Tal, Spassky or Botvinnik.> That's interesting, especially the second one. Not that I don't believe you but what are the sources for these?> Korchnoi's remarks about Petrosian come from the earlier version of his book <Chess is my life> Batsford first paperback edition 1978, chapter 8, page 46, penultimate paragraph <...For years, chess masters regarded his inimitable style with contempt and fear...> Kasparov in his book <My great predecessors part III>, the book on Petrosian and Spassky, page 54, col 1 quotes Kotov saying that Fischer said <If Petrosian played more boldly, he would be the strongest player in the world> I suggest that Petrosian was indeed the strongest player in the world in the early 1960s from 1960 to 1963 and that Petrosian was at his peak during this period. I don't remember where I read that Fischer said that he liked the play of Petrosian more than that of Tal, Spassky or Botvinnik although he may have said it to Hort or to Gligorich.> Thank you for the informative and thorough reply. I have read both of the books by Korchnoi and Kasparov though it has been quite some time. I agree with you regarding Petrosian's playing strength during this time as well. |
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May-11-22
| | 0ZeR0: <perfidious: <0Zer0>, that is a most insightful quote from Jordan and one I had never seen. A bit of irony: the one time I saw Jordan play live, he made little impression (17 during a season in which his average was twice that), but teammate Horace Grant came through with a big game as Bulls crushed Knicks anyway.> Horace Grant always did strike me as a dependable sidekick for MJ. One who would almost always come up big right when you needed him to. |
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May-11-22
| | HeMateMe: charles Oakley was always a little bitter that Bulls GM Jerry Krause swapped him to New York and then went out and got Grant, but Oak never had the offensive chops. Chicago doesn't win some of those rings without Grant. Cheapskate Bulls later lost Grant to Miami, where he won a title there, too. |
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May-11-22
 | | harrylime: Is the great FIXER alive in that photo above ?? Just sayin ... |
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| May-11-22 | | Petrosianic: <harrydavidchapman>: <Is the great FIXER alive in that photo above ??> You WOULD ask a question like that, Killer duh lol |
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