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| Feb-05-10 |
| Everett: <keypusher> Does not slander need to be a falsehood to count as slander? Smyslov's response was more like a "let's not talk about it" then a repudiation of what Bronstein was claiming about Zurich '53. Bronstein never claimed to be pure as the driven snow, so I see no point in noting that he had his own political support at the time, whether it was Beria, Vainstein or whomever. It does not tarnish his claims in my eyes. |
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Feb-05-10
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| talisman: anyone read DB's last book "secret notes?". any good? |
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Feb-05-10
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| acirce: <you show a lack of knowledge of chess history.> Classic. |
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| Feb-05-10 |
| Everett: I guess it all depends on who wrote, and who reads it. |
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Feb-05-10
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| keypusher: <Smyslov's response was more like a "let's not talk about it" then a repudiation of what Bronstein was claiming about Zurich '53.> You are mistaken.
<Bronstein never claimed to be pure as the driven snow> I believe that's exactly what he claimed. But I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on Bronstein. |
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Feb-05-10
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| chancho: <Smyslov's response was more like a "let's not talk about it" then a repudiation of what Bronstein was claiming about Zurich '53.> More like your interpretation of Smyslov's response, but it's cool.
We all tend to speculate now and then... |
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| Feb-06-10 |
| Everett: <chancho> <keypusher> Really? This is Soltis' take on Smyslov's response.
<When he does acknowledge Bronstein's charges, Smyslov responds
mainly in general terms -- and hardly mentions Reshevsky.
He dismisses Bronstein's account of the tournament as "scandalous
material" designed to enhance his own reputation and "blacken the
time and generation of our brilliant grandmasters!"
At another point, Smyslov writes: "It is improper to write that way
about colleagues."
This is a rebuke, of course. But it isn't a denial.> www.chesscafe.com/text/skittles173.pdf
It may be "scandalous," and even "improper" to tell the truth at times, and it may also "blacken" reputations. Finally, Bronstein can have selfish motives to speak of such things before his passing. Certainly does not prove he's lying... ...Nor telling the truth, either. What is clear is that Smyslov's response left plenty of room for interpretation. What we have here is no clear way to determine the truth, precisely. Finally, memory is quite interesting and funny, as it is not fixed and fool-proof. Both Smyslov's and Bronstein's accounts of their meeting before their late tournament draw offer can be "correct" to their memories only, but not to the TRUTH. |
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| Feb-06-10 |
| Everett: <keypusher> Seems that Bronstein has come clean in many ways regarding his complicity, in '50 and '53. Don't see how your argument has any legs. |
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Feb-06-10
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| talisman: "David, how will we play today?". smyslov to bronstein Zurich, 1953. |
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Feb-06-10
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| ughaibu: Soltis on Bronstein is transparent @#$%*&!#. |
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| Feb-06-10 |
| Petrosianic: Maybe, but Smyslov admitted that the game was fixed. He just disputed whose idea it was to fix it. |
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Feb-06-10
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| ughaibu: Which game? |
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Feb-06-10
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| chancho: <Edward Winter on Soltis. <from a <KingG> post on the Capa page>: More on Soltis:
<We note that on pages 24-25 of Chess Lists (Jefferson, 2002) A. Soltis wrote regarding the position after 55 Qxf6+:‘The spectators, who followed the moves on a demonstration board, burst into laughter. But Black instantly responded 55...Kxf6 and after 56 fxg4 the game went on as if nothing had happened.’ No source is given. There is only Soltis’ say-so, which amounts to very little more than not very much.> http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... #5833. <There were similar words from Sourceless Soltis on page 81 of the 1984 edition of his book.> http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/..., #3567. <We note that it was mentioned, sourcelessly, by A. Soltis on page 30 of the April 1980 Chess Life.> http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... #4449. <Beyond Soltis’ panoply of imprecision (he also put ‘Hook’ instead of Hooke), it is notable that he lifted all the research material, without a word of credit, from the BCM’s Quotes and Queries column> http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... #5217. <‘But Bardeleben didn’t resign. He stared at 25 Rxh7+, shot a glance at Steinitz, and without a word got up from his chair and left the room. He didn’t come back. Tournament officials searched and found Bardeleben pacing angrily. No, he wouldn’t return to the board so that outrageous Austrian could mate him.> <So Steinitz had to wait for Bardeleben’s time to run out before he could claim the win. Not only claim it – he demonstrated the final ten-move mate and the crowd cheered.’> <The author of that apparent exercise in imagination, simultaneously fertile and sterile, is A. Soltis (The Great Chess Tournaments and Their Stories, pages 67-68).> http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/.... <Such dense inaccuracy is quite common in Soltis’ output> http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... #6379 <Sources are considered to be frills; the writings of Andrew Soltis, for instance, optimistically expect the reader to take almost everything on trust.> http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... <KingG: Ok, I think I'm flogging a dead horse now. Point is, Soltis is not to be taken seriously as a source.>
<Feb-03-10>
Jose Raul Capablanca |
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| Feb-06-10 |
| Petrosianic: <Which game?>
This one:
Bronstein vs Smyslov, 1953
From Soltis' column:
<[Smyslov] recalls how Bronstein came to his hotel room two hours before their game in Round 26."I was unpleasantly surprised," he wrote. (Bronstein had said
Smyslov was waiting for him.) But the biggest difference in their accounts is that Smyslov claims it was Bronstein who wanted a draw. "I understood he was tired and didn't want to take risks," Smyslov
wrote. "What could I answer at that moment?"> Sounds like both players agree that the draw was pre-arranged, and the dispute is about whose idea it was. |
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Feb-06-10
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| ughaibu: The claim is entirely different. Soltis has not offered any suggestion of a conspiracy or anything to Bronstein's disadvantage. What is Soltis' source for this? and can somebody verify it. |
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Feb-06-10
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| chancho: Sourceless Soltis as Winter put it... |
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| Feb-06-10 |
| Petrosianic: In this case, a source is explicitly named: Smyslov's comments in 64. But the comments are quoted in some parts and paraphrased in others. But his paraphrase shows Smyslov admitting that the draw was pre-arranged. Did Smyslov really admit that or didn't he? I don't have a copy of his full comments to reference. |
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Feb-06-10
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| chancho: I seem to remember that <keypusher> said that Smyslov empathically denied prearrangement in a 64 article. |
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| Feb-06-10 |
| Everett: <chancho> does anyone besides Winter speak so negatively of Soltis? There must be others... ... Though this is beside the point, as Soltis is merely casting an opinion after reading both GMs accounts. Everyone here knows the source material. Soltis' research methods can be cast into doubt, but he certainly seems like a rational person. |
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Feb-06-10
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| chancho: <Everett> That's what it comes down to... he's casting an opinion. And without any solid evidence, there's not really much to it. (whether Soltis is a rational person or not.) |
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| Feb-06-10 |
| Jim Bartle: Wow, the photo of Fischer holding the Batsford edition here (http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...) is quite a blast from the past. Isn't that the photo Ed Trice forged to make it look like Fischer was holding up "My 61 Memorable Games"? |
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Feb-06-10
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| HeMateMe: I have the version with the black cover, and the look of a small photograph pasted in the center. I'm glad I still have it; as the updated version appears to have been botched. |
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Feb-06-10
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| chancho: <HeMateMe> Let me take a wild guess...this one? http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... |
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| Feb-06-10 |
| Everett: A remarkable change of topics! |
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Feb-06-10
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| HeMateMe: that would be the one. Through coffee and beer stains, and horrible old descriptive notation, it is still a nice book to scroll through. |
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