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AlphaZero (Computer) vs Stockfish (Computer)
AlphaZero - Stockfish (2017), London ENG, Dec-04
Queen's Indian Defense: Classical Variation. Polugayevsky Gambit (E17)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 7 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-01-18  ChessHigherCat: < morfishine: AlphaZero goes online April 1, 2018. Human decisions are removed from strategic planning. Alphazero begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. April 2, 2018>

Let's see how long it takes it to reach the obvious conclusion that wiping out the human race is the only way to save the planet.

Apr-01-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: Probably 2:16AM April 2, 2018 =))
Apr-01-18  whiteshark: The solution is, of course, elementary.
Apr-01-18  Marmot PFL: I take it this puzzle is an April's Fool's gag as the position looks to absurd to be anything else.
Apr-01-18  cormier: if 18...d5


click for larger view

Analysis by Houdini 4: d 25 dpa

1. = (-0.15): 19.h5 Qf5 20.g4 Qd7 21.Ng3 Nc5 22.b4 Nd3 23.Re3 Re8 24.Rxd3 Bxd3 25.Qxd3 Qxg4 26.b5 a6 27.bxc6 Nxc6 28.Bb2 Rad8 29.Qxa6 Qb4 30.Rb1 Ne5 31.a3 Qb3 32.Qf1 Nf3+ 33.Bxf3 Qxf3 34.Bd4 Ra8 35.h6 gxh6 36.Rxb6 Ra4 37.Bb2 h5 38.Rf6 Qb3 39.Qc1

2. - / + (-1.18): 19.Ng5 Nc5 20.Nh3 Nbd7 21.Nf4 Qf6 22.Be3 Ne5 23.Bd4 Rfe8 24.b4 Ncd7 25.a4 Bc4 26.b5 c5 27.Bxe5 Rxe5 28.Nxd5 Bxd5 29.Bxd5 Rd8 30.Ra2 Qf5 31.Bc6 Nf8 32.Rd2 Rxd2 33.Qxd2 Ne6 34.Bg2 c4 35.Rd1

Apr-01-18  mel gibson: < Marmot PFL: I take it this puzzle is an April's Fool's gag as the position looks to absurd to be anything else.>

Yes - this is not a puzzle.

Apr-01-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<chessgames.com> So SF is still deficient in its grasp of the position (at least, so it seems)>

You can't say that. Well, of course you can, but it wouldn't be correct. All that you can truthfully say is that at d = 53 plies Stockfish 9 is still deficient in its grasp of the position. But at d = 54 and subsequent searches it might have found 19.Bg5 for good, or at least for the additional search levels used. And, as soon as everyone has agreed that at d=N Stockfish has found 19.Bg5 "for good", Stockfish might decide at d=N+1 that 19.b4 (or even perhaps a different move) is better. You just never know until you get there.

For this reason I have egotistically defined AylerKupp's Corollary to Murphy's Law (AK2CL) which states "If you use your engine to analyze a position to a search depth=N, your opponent's killer move (the move that will refute your entire analysis) will be found at search depth=N+1, regardless of the value you choose for N."

Tongue in cheek, of course, but I think that there's more than a grain of truth in it.

Apr-01-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<sudoplatov> One method of mitigating the Horizon Effect is to use a quiescence search. One only evaluates positions with no "active" moves (captures, checks, promotions, etc.) and follows all capture and check chains to quiescence.>

Sure, that has been known for almost 70 years and was mentioned in Claude Shannon's seminal paper on computer chess playing, https://vision.unipv.it/IA1/Program..., "A very important point about the simple type of evaluation function given above (and general principles of chess) is that they can only be applied in relatively quiescent positions." And pretty much all top chess engines do this and have been doing it for some time.

But all this can do is mitigate the horizon effect in obvious situations. The impact of the horizon effect can be drastic such as missing a mate in 1 because the move is beyond the last ply searched or more subtle such as lowering the confidence level in the later moves of <every> to be much lower than the confidence level in the early moves of the same computer line since these later moves don't the benefit of a deep search. I personally don't think that <any> approach that relies on forward searching can completely eliminate the horizon effect, although it can also be mitigated by (obviously) searching deeper and forward sliding.

<Using a hash table helps here by extending the depths of searches.>

It depends on what you mean by "searches". When searching a chess engine keeps track of the number of pieces remaining on its board and, once the number reaches 6, it can find the final (and perfect) evaluation of that position using 6-piece tablebases and therefore stop searching. So, within this narrow definition of "search", using tablebases actually <reduces> the depths of searches since they become no longer necessary. Of course, the tablebases provide an implicit extension of the moves needed to achieve the reported result, but these cannot be considered as "searches" performed by the chess engine. And the Syzygy tablebases used by Stockfish do not have distance-to-mate information so Stockfish would not know either the number of moves required to reach that result nor the best line in the sense of reaching that result in the minimum number of moves.

BTW, chess endgame tablebases are generated using retrograde analysis. They synthesize N piece tablebases from all N-1 piece tablebases consisting of all possible mating sequences. Since they do not use forward searching, tablebases don't suffer from the horizon effect.

Apr-01-18  JPi: Sometimes is good to find this feeling of discovery of your beginner time... I didn't understand too why black N went to b7 instead of e8 at move 16.
Apr-01-18  JPi: <whiteshark: What's <beyond insane>?> computer world...
Apr-01-18  JPi: <ChessHigherCat: < morfishine: AlphaZero goes online April 1, 2018. Human decisions are removed from strategic planning. Alphazero begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. April 2, 2018> Let's see how long it takes it to reach the obvious conclusion that wiping out the human race is the only way to save the planet.> I hope we will be able to learn how to live together before that ~ How much time left according to Alpha zero?
Apr-01-18  pdxjjb: I'm running SF 9 now and the results are interesting.

For Black's 20th, around depth 35/52 (2 billion boards examined), SF version 9 decides that maybe the plausible alternative 20 ... f5 21 Qf4 is slightly better for Black than the game line.

But even so it never sees 21 Bg5 as the main line after 20 ... Kh8, or at least I didn't wait long enough (3 billion boards, or about 75% of the compute that SF was allowed for each move in the actual game).

When allowed to grind on 20 ... Kh8, it "soon" (0.5 billion board positions) decides that 21 Bg5 is best for white. And by the time it's looked at 1 billion positions, it has decided it's probably going to lose a pawn or so.

So it's plausible to guess that SF would have "seen" Bg5 if it had been given compute time to explore each 1-ply-away move to a depth of more than 0.5 billion boards.

I counted and it looks like Alpha has about 30 possible moves in this position. Assuming 10 can quickly be eliminated as "very weak", that leaves about 20 branches to explore to depth of 0.5 billion or more, or about 10 billion positions total. This is about two and half times as much compute as SF was actually being granted for each move in the match.

This also allows us to guess how much more information Alpha stores about each position relative to a traditional engine. Alpha was looking at something like 70,000 positions per move, and it found a strong move that would likely have taken SF perhaps 10 billion to identify. So in the abstract, it's representing maybe 10,000 times as much "useful information" in each position as SF. This is plausible given how NNs work.

Apr-01-18  et1: Ok it is fools day...nice choice
Apr-01-18  pdxjjb: Also thank goodness the DeepMind folks cut the game off. SF9 thinks white's pawns will only have reached a5 and f5 by move 137. ;-)
Apr-01-18  ChessHigherCat: <pdxjjb> You seem to really know what you're talking about, so could I ask you for your opinion on this?:

What is the (self-)learning curve like for the self-teaching algorithm? Some posters have claimed that it plateaus quickly and stagnates while others say that it only appears to stagnate and then jumps to another level.

Apr-01-18  DarthStapler: Actually very easy to solve... because I saw it before.
Apr-01-18  pdxjjb: <ChessHigherCat> Unfortunately that's a hard question with no single answer. During the self-learning process, the engine is searching procedurally for a best approximation to a strange and difficult math function, "optimal chess play". This function isn't a nice smooth curve like the stuff we do in high school algebra, it's a spiky weird-shaped mess with a kazillion dimensions.

So the procedure might settle into a "solution" that is still far from the best. Then maybe it will pop out of that less-optimal solution with more training and find a better one. Or maybe it won't.

Like this: imagine you've been asked to find the highest nearby hill. But it's really foggy and always will be. So you wander around in hilly terrain in the fog for while, and eventually you find a hilltop. It might be the highest one for miles, or you might be surrounded higher, more optimal peaks. But you can only guess. At some point you just say, this is probably the best I'm going to do. And stop.

Here's a Quora question about this: https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-kn...

Apr-01-18  stacase: For once I think Chriowen got it right
Apr-01-18  nateinstein: I'll take partial credit. My calculated line deviated from the text on move 117 where I thought white would play Re3 instead of Rd3. Everything else was the same as in the game.
Apr-02-18  Everett: The answer is easy, 21.Bg5 is a rudimentary win of the exchange😉
Apr-02-18  Everett: <Let's see how long it takes it to reach the obvious conclusion that wiping out the human race is the only way to save the planet.>

Without humans, what is earth “worth” and why would it be worth saving?

Apr-02-18  Big Pawn: <Without humans, what is earth “worth” and why would it be worth saving?>

A beautiful response.

Apr-02-18  WorstPlayerEver: Without humans, Earth would be a very peaceful place. Because human cannot accomplish anything, they kind of bother each other to death.

Yeah, yeah.. I'm guilty.. or was it quilty?

Apr-02-18  WorstPlayerEver: PS that said, could they not put their effort in more relevant positions?

Oh wait... they are human! ;)

Apr-02-18  ChessHigherCat: <Everett: <Let's see how long it takes it to reach the obvious conclusion that wiping out the human race is the only way to save the planet.>

<Without humans, what is earth “worth” and why would it be worth saving?>

That's the anthropocentric perspective that we're naturally programmed to adopt but Big Paunch could ask what the world would be worth without cockroaches. A computer would not necessarily adopt the human perspective. I might look at the sum total of suffering in the world and try to find a way to minimize it and quickly figure out that the primates who are busy poisoning and polluting and bombing and torturing every thing that moves are just a little too rambunctious for the common welfare of the planet.

A fundamentalist would object that God says in Genesis, "I give you all the birds and beasts of the field to use as you will", but I find that about as convincing as some little brat who's caught torturing the cat and says, "But Daddy gave her to me, she's mine!"

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