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| Dec-07-21 | | fabelhaft: <Can players always adjust pieces like this?> The adjusting pieces section from your link:
<If a player wishes to adjust one or more pieces on their squares without being required to move them, the player can announce j’adoube ([ʒaˈdub], "I adjust"), or words to that effect in other languages. If a player does not announce an adjustment in advance, they may be penalized accordingly> |
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Dec-07-21
 | | Check It Out: I reviewed the controversial "touch move" of his king's knight by Carlsen before he played 18...h6 in this game. Look at this video: https://twitter.com/i/status/146823... It looks clear that he was not adjusting the piece but planning to move it. Even the way he lifted his hand off the knight with a conciliatory gesture suggests he's trying to send a message out that he didn't mean to do that. When players actually adjust pieces they don't feel the need to make that signal. Meanwhile in the press conference, when asked about it, Carlsen replied testily, <“Not this again,” he says. “This happens in every single world championship match. Clearly some pieces are adjusted and it’s with no intent to move. Do better.”> Hmm...very touchy answer not backed up by the video. The commentators said that Nepo wasn't there to call him out on it, but is there some possibility of a post-game ruling, I wonder? If not, then Nepo should sit at the board more often. Where's <nok>? |
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| Dec-07-21 | | fabelhaft: <It looks clear that he was not adjusting the piece but planning to move it> Really? There is nowhere to move it… I get the feeling that he suddenly realised that it doesn’t look good to do it when the opponent is away and you can’t inform him about it, but then Nepo was never at the board :-) |
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| Dec-07-21 | | chesslearning: <If a player does not announce an adjustment in advance, they may be penalized accordingly> But is it customary for the player to be penalized for this? I mean this type of situation must have come up before. |
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| Dec-07-21 | | chesslearning: <Hmm...very touchy answer not backed up by the video.> Yeah, I did not like that answer at all. Tried to make the reporter look like a moron for even asking the question. This is exactly the type of thing the press conference should be for. To clarify these type of situations for non chess-pro's. But instead of clarification we get more confusion. |
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| Dec-07-21 | | fabelhaft: <this type of situation must have come up before> I think it usually is fairly obvious when it is touch move and when it is piece adjustment, even if there could be gray zones. Some players are disturbed when the pieces aren’t placed ”right”. Here Carlsen’s knight is to the far left of the square and he moved it more to the middle. But I don’t think one in general is supposed to do these things with the opponent absent. |
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Dec-07-21
 | | Dionysius1: I think the key word is "may". I'm pretty sure a. A complaint would have to be made by the opponent and b. Super GMs trust each other well enough that they know when to make a fuss and when not. I'm with Carlsen on this one. Pretty safe place to be at the moment :-) |
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| Dec-07-21 | | fabelhaft: Touch move example: https://youtu.be/puRR65UUKAs |
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| Dec-07-21 | | thebully99: Chess. com’s Danny Rensch offered an explanation that Carlsen may have held onto the piece a few seconds longer because he realized the instant he tried to adjust the knight that he was being watched by a million people on camera which is why he did the hand gesture. In any case if neither the arbiter nor player was present, then “j’adoube” is redundant. |
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| Dec-07-21 | | fabelhaft: <Carlsen may have held onto the piece a few seconds longer because he realized the instant he tried to adjust the knight that he was being watched by a million people on camera which is why he did the hand gesture> Yes, regardless it is difficult to imagine him ever considering a knight move there, of the four possible moves three lose immediately after d5 or hanging the piece. The fourth is returning it to g4 from which it was just retracted, which is just a really bad move and makes no sense either. But then of course the players do make horrible mistakes now and then. |
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Dec-07-21
| | Check It Out: <fabelhaft> In your Nakamura example, see that conciliatory gesture he made?! That's exactly what Carlsen did. It's like a fake-out: <I was just adjusting the piece *puzzled look*> |
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| Dec-07-21 | | fabelhaft: <In your Nakamura example, see that conciliatory gesture he made?! That's exactly what Carlsen did> One shouldn’t be too quick to assume it means the same thing though :-) But either you are right and Carlsen intended to move the knight, or Rensch’s interpretation is the right one. |
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| Dec-07-21 | | fabelhaft: Carlsen tends to like having the pieces in the middle of the squares :-) https://youtu.be/UX1lpJR_iOA |
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Dec-07-21
 | | paulalbert: I watched the controversial action: To me it did not appear that he had any intention of moving the knight, but not a wise thing to do. When I play live and want to adjust a piece, I make a point of clearly and audibly stating "j'adoube" before getting my hand even close to touching the piece, even if my opponent is not at the board and the need for adjustment is obvious. Some players, especially in blitz, just instinctively adjust an obviously badly centered piece, not saying anything, or barely mumbling. The old advice: "Sit on your hands while considering your next move" can be good advice for avoiding these controversies. Also, I do not hold and twirl pieces, which can be distracting ( even if not intentional ) for your opponent no matter whose move. |
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| Dec-07-21 | | chesslearning: One thing that is really annoying to me is how the burden is on the other player to call out illegal moves. So the impression I'm getting is that a pro chess player can do anything, even illegal moves like moving a bishop sideways and if the other player doesn't see it or notice it... and doesn't lodge a complaint, this is brushed aside and they continue playing as if nothing happened? |
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| Dec-07-21 | | fabelhaft: After this game Carlsen has 10-2 in wins in title match games, and 4-4 in wins against Nepo (4-0 the last four years though). |
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Dec-07-21
| | Check It Out: The crew in the video I posted opined that it was a touch-move rather than an adjust. I agree there really is no good move for the knight, though a patzer (like myself) could easily play 18...Ne8. |
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| Dec-07-21 | | Margetic D: Dear <chesslearning> , <I've never played in a chess tournament. So I don't know how it works. Can players always adjust pieces like this? If so, why did commentators make such a deal about it? > It is the so called touch-move rule, very common. A player who wants to adjust a piece on its square without being required to move it can announce the French j’adoube (in english "I adjust") before touching the piece. Jadoube will be used worldwide, so that the opponent (no metter from which country) and eventually referee knows, that the player will put the piece better on its square. This happens quite frequently if players have to blitz. Also important, if a player touch his/her piece accidentally, lets assume with elbow, there are NO consequences. As for this game: i m very, very sorry this happens. I hope , somehow, this match will be honored by last 5 excellent games, but i m right now not sure. I m too afraid, Ian might have psychological issues, although i will hope he is going to be fine. |
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Dec-07-21
 | | Teyss: Whatever one thinks about the touch-move issue,
Controversy + Decisive WC game + Blunder + Meltdown = History.Also historical is Carlsen's face after Nepo played 27.c5 (wait for a few seconds. Looks like the right moment according to the position): https://twitter.com/olimpiuurcan/st... Somewhere between "Am I dreaming?", "Is there a trap?" and "Did he actually win the Candidates?" |
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| Dec-07-21 | | optimal play: <Carlsen's face after Nepo played 27.c5> Nepo said he didn't realise his blunder until after Carlsen responded with 27...c6 It seems incredible he wouldn't have considered that move as one of Carlsen's possible responses. Also, asked in the press conference following this game, "Your feeling now about the match situation", Nepo replied "It's worse than I expected" He'd have to be a real pessimist to have expected this. |
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| Dec-07-21 | | Caissanist: Well, at least we got a good Monday puzzle out of this year's WC. Next time I spring for a premium membership I want a still from that twitter GIF for my avatar. |
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Dec-07-21
 | | Sally Simpson: Hi Chesslearning,
<"if the other player doesn't see it or notice it... and doesn't lodge a complaint, this is brushed aside and they continue playing as if nothing happened?> Yes. There are a few examples of illegal moves being missed.
Kindermann vs Korchnoi, 1995 we can only see 26 moves but the game went on longer than that. 
click for larger viewHere Korchnoi castled but the h8 Rook had been to g8, stayed there for 7 moves than moved back to h8. Neither player noticed and the game went on. Re: The Carlsen moment. If the electronic board did not register the Knight being picked up then you have to go with an adjustment. It looked like an adjustment to me, you can tell the difference between that and an 'OOPS! I did not mean that move.' The Touch Move Trick.
You want to set trap with Nxe5 but it is so obvious a trap you mask it by picking up the Knight for a few seconds and put it back on it's original square. You Opponent tells you 'touch move.' then, feigning disgust, you play Nxe5. (has this has ever worked, has anyone even tried it?) |
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Dec-07-21
 | | keypusher: <Sally>
<The Touch Move Trick.
You want to set trap with Nxe5 but it is so obvious a trap you mask it by picking up the Knight for a few seconds and put it back on it's original square. You Opponent tells you 'touch move.' then, feigning disgust, you play Nxe5. (has this has ever worked, has anyone even tried it?)> Gunsberg. It worked, too.
Gunsberg vs Steinitz, 1891 (kibitz #1) |
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Dec-07-21
 | | harrylime: moves like 27 c5 ... and no I've not looked at any engine or otther analysis ...just traps the Bishop and looks bad ... Nepo is playing just bad chess here. |
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Dec-07-21
| | Sally Simpson: I knew there was was one from years back but could recall the details, for some reason I thought Mason was one of the players involved. Good spot. I was hoping for someone here to say they have tried it. (don't tell him, but it sounds like the kind of thing Perfidious would do, he plays poker don't you know, cards are the devils toys.) |
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