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Dec-29-22 | | stone free or die: There's no such mate. |
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Dec-29-22 | | Messiah: <stone free or die: There's no such mate.> Yes there is: https://chessfox.com/mayets-mate/ |
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Dec-29-22 | | stone free or die: Sure, there's various definitions of it floating about. But there's not a consensus. Try to trace back to original source, not some online aggregator site, and let me know what you think. (This is actually a sincere request, fwiw.)
E.g. how is the Mayet Mate different from the Opera Mate? |
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Dec-29-22
 | | FSR: A lot of interaction between Wurm and Orchard, as you might expect. https://www.chessgames.com/perl/che... What's an orchard without wurms? |
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Dec-29-22 | | stone free or die: I'll have a cider beside her. |
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Dec-29-22 | | Messiah: Thank god perfidy haven't showed up here yet. |
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Dec-29-22 | | stone free or die: OK, maybe I was thinking of Anderssen's Mate, there's plenty of room for confusion. But the Mayet Mate has a definite source, which is somewhat unclear, and started the confusion. I think it's fine to invent mates, heck, I did it myself several times (Railroad, Balestra, Escalator, Q+B dovetail), but I think the pattern must be clear and useful. That's why I did most of my work on <ChessTempo>. The ratings and tagging provided a good feedback loop - and it's also why those mates now have widespread, accepted, usage. . |
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Dec-29-22
 | | perfidious: One might say that the worm turned in this particular orchard. |
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Dec-30-22
 | | fredthebear: <Dec-29-22 Messiah: <stone free or die: There's no such mate.> Messiah - I am a fan of the chessfox pages in general. Unfortunately, they're under the influence of Wikipedia, which is under the influence of "The Big Book of Chess" which was poorly written. (Poorly written you say FTB? The author is known for his rush to publish, lack of attention to detail, and little or no editing. A BIG book should actually contain chess games inside!) It's my conviction (until I see a non-internet source of high regard, likely a foreign-published book not originally written in English) that Mayet's Mate is a bishop on the long diagonal only, anywhere on the long diagonal. The protected rook gives check. Anderssen's Mate is protected pawn-supports-rook in the corner. It is similar to but not a Mayet's mate. The big shot researcher recently took up Mayet's Mate as the topic and failed miserably. Biographer Bistro (kibitz #25245) Then the liar trolls me on this page saying <stone free or die: There's no such mate.> I suppose he "invented" its disappearance over the last three weeks?  click for larger viewMayet's Mate on the long diagonal.
I'm tired of the rag, but the obvious dishonesty repeated over and over is allowed. Just one of many examples of dishonesty: chessgames.com chessforum (kibitz #39471) |
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Dec-30-22
 | | fredthebear: Great Bear, so help me! Here's the game continuation that ends in Mayet's Mate: 28.QxBf8+ KxQf8 29.Nxh7+ Kg8 30. Re8+ KxNh7 31.Rh8# click for larger viewGame continuation ends in Mayet's Mate! |
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Dec-30-22 | | stone free or die: <Ftb> why do constantly resort to such childish behavior, it's like you never grew up. <I'm tired of the rag, but the obvious dishonesty repeated over and over is allowed. Just one of many examples of dishonesty: chessgames.com chessforum (kibitz #39471)> You claim you want to talk chess, but constantly verve off on temper tantums. Again, I challenge you to find the original source where Mayet's Mate appears. If one scours the net you'll find it has some fairly infrequent usage - but even then with differing definitions. Likely because the original source didn't clearly define the mate. . |
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Dec-30-22 | | Messiah: The Mayet mate appears here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check... <Mayet's mate involves the use of a rook attacking the black king supported by a bishop. It often comes about after the black king castles on its kingside in a fianchetto position. White usually arrives at this position after a series of sacrifices on the a-file or h-file. It is a type of Anderssen's mate and closely resembles the Opera mate. The "h-file" mate is an apt description, but the pattern is properly called "Mayet's mate" after the German player C/Karl Mayet (born Aug-11-1810, died May-18-1868, 57 years old). See variation description in Anderssen's mate given above. Reference Chapter 10, p. 107 of "The Art of the Checkmate" by Georges Renaud and Victor Kahn (Champions of France, 1923 and 1934). ISBN 0-486-20106-6.> |
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Dec-30-22 | | Messiah: And here: https://books.google.es/books?id=hm... at endgame #36. Mayet vs Anderssen, 1851 is the game, but, interestingly, it is dated to 1851, and it doesn't even feature a Mayet mate. |
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Dec-30-22 | | Messiah: I mean, the Wikipedia-referenced ISBN 0-486-20106-6 is the book where that name appears. Also, I cannot find any game in this database from Mayet which would be won with a Mayet mate, further deepening the mystery. |
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Dec-30-22 | | stone free or die: Let's wind this back again - and suppose we accept the Mayet's Mate definition from <Messiah> (i.e. chessfox.com's def): click for larger viewYou see that the bishop is merely playing a supporting role here - and only attacks one square within reach of the Black king. https://chessfox.com/mayets-mate/
Compare this to Morphy's famous <Opera Mate>:  click for larger viewHere the bishop attacks two squares, one supporting the rook who delivers mate, and a flight square the rook misses. Now compare the above to the final mate position in this game:  click for larger viewClearly this isn't a <Mayet Mate> (whatever that may be fwiw), it's a <Opera Mate>, since the bishop is also covering the g7 square. . |
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Dec-30-22 | | stone free or die: Ah, nice to see <Messiah> doing some digging on this. I agree, the term comes from (afaik) the classic book <Art of the Checkmate>. But, as I've said, I have several problems with their discussion. Normally an excellent and clear book, the characterization of what exactly constitutes a <Mayet Mate> is confused. At least I wasn't able to get a clear idea of how it uniquely sets itself off from the <Anderssen> style mates. Do you have the book? I'd like to hear some opinions about it. |
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Dec-30-22 | | stone free or die: <<Messiah> Also, I cannot find any game in this database from Mayet which would be won with a Mayet mate, further deepening the mystery.> And this one I don't know the answer to myself.
I'd like to know where Renaud and Kahn got the position they illustrate in their book (with its confusing caption). . |
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Dec-30-22
 | | fredthebear: Good work Messiah. Your second gorgeous example with the queen is a Corridor Mate. To Whom It May Concern: I'm not sharing my particular resources information with someone who claims to have invented various chess aspects like he's on par with Captain Evans, Howard Staunton, and Adolf Anderssen. That is appalling to those of us who take our chess seriously! As a dedicated student of the game and chess instructor I have looked long and hard for all kinds of information over the years, example after example. I won't give my knowledge away for free to aide some ignorant phony continuously attempting to sound like an authority with long-winded say-nothing rants. I have hundreds of chess books, pamphlets, and magazines; years of notes. Believe me, old chess books contain a lot of information that gets cut out of thinner modern books. The author, editor, and publisher can make a big difference in the depth, the quality of the book. So many of today's publishers just want to make a buck and don't care about the accuracy or usefulness of the content. The best chance of finding old information is to point one's nose into topical books and old books of the romantic era. Do you know your classics?? You gotta earn it! |
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Dec-30-22 | | stone free or die: Punt! |
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Dec-30-22
 | | perfidious: When someone starts prattling on with 'believe me' and 'trust me', a funny thing happens: they <lose me>. Capisce, <fredthenonentity>? |
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Dec-31-22 | | nok: <Clearly this isn't a <Mayet Mate> (whatever that may be fwiw), it's a <Opera Mate>> Isn't the distinction just castled vs uncastled king? |
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Dec-31-22 | | stone free or die: <<nok> Isn't the distinction just castled vs uncastled king?> I never use castling privileges in characterizing a mate, though I suppose one might consider it, as some thematic attacks involve ripping open a castled position (say cracking the h- or a-file). Usually the mates are characterized by the pieces involved and the geometry used to trap the king. Remember, I'm not sure what a <Mayet Mate> is just yet (more on this later). But I tried to point out the distinction between the <Anderssen Mate> and the <Opera Mate> by the need for the bishop to cover one of the flight squares. A F Wurm vs I Orchard, 1887 (kibitz #20) |
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Dec-31-22 | | stone free or die: f I could play the pedantic a little...
The <Opera Mate> is what I'd call an edge mate. For me, I spot the same pattern whether it's on the back rank edge or the side edge of the board.I'm prone to consider abstracting patterns too, and present this simple example for consideration accordingly: <White to mate-in-2>  click for larger viewOne might consider the final position an abstract <Opera Mate>. |
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Dec-31-22
 | | fredthebear: More foolishness, really. You're the last to know that the Opera House game featuring Morphy's Opera Mate is a certain top-three most famous game of all-time on any continent. (Well, I'm just guessing about Antartica.) Such embarrassing abstract NONSENSE posting aint anything like that no how, no way. On the positive side, 'believe me' -- I lost my stalker pervicious. He musta tripped a fell in the gloomy dark. |
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Dec-31-22 | | stone free or die: Fred, you're just taking up space with that claptrap. |
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