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| Dec-08-04 | | drukenknight: okay you have a pt. Let's sack the B on move 36, what the heck it's only ALekhines B. So... 35...g4 36. Kf2 Rb6! |
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Dec-08-04
 | | beatgiant: <drukenknight>:
<35...g4 36. Kf2 Rb6!>
Can you describe your idea in greater detail? White seems to win easily against the obvious lines like 35...g4 36. ♔f2 ♖b6 37. ♖xa4 ♖b2+ 38. ♔e3 ♖b3+ 39. ♔d2 g3 40. ♖a6+ ♔e5 41. ♖g6 ♖a3 42. f6 ♖a2+ 43. ♔c3 ♖a3+ 44. ♔b2 ♖f3 45. f7 and now the g-pawn falls to the threat of ♖xg3. |
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| Dec-08-04 | | drukenknight: bg: in your last line, try 39...Rb2+ not sure if the crap computer is looping out or just doesnt know.... |
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Dec-08-04
| | beatgiant: <drukenknight>:
<in your last line, try 39...Rb2+ not sure if the crap computer is looping out or just doesnt know....>How does that make a significant difference (in the hypothetical line we have been discussing) after 39...♖b2+ 40. ♔c3 . Black will run out of checks and then White proceeds as in the line I gave earlier. I still don't get your main idea here. |
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| Dec-08-04 | | drukenknight: not sure of anything, what do you see as the follow up to 40 Kc3? the crap computer just gives checks, but maybe it has cached something in its memory (it does weird stuff lets just say), are you using a computer what do you see after move 40? |
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| Dec-08-04 | | drukenknight: See it is starting to loop on me like this:
39…Rb2+ 40. Ke3 (somethine else?) Rb3+ 41. Ke2 Rb2+ 42. Kd3 this is all Im saying if you want to keep suggesting moves, feel free, I just wish I had better binary woodpusher. |
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| Dec-09-04 | | drukenknight: u know it's funny, Alekhine usually plays his pawns so flawlessly, I mean it. ANd in this game what is going on with these pawns. What was the pt of 34...h5? Those pawns are not supposed to be advanced like that are they? What if the K goes right into the middle of the field? |
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| Dec-09-04 | | drukenknight: u know. All day I been pulling my hair out trying to make move 35 and move 36 work. THen I come back to this and the answer is so obvious. Look at blacks move 34. Okay there are at least four things telling me to move the K. 1) what hurry is the h pawn in to get to h5? Its not trying to beat the other h pawn. there is no rush. Plus this pawn formation is not the passer, this is the formation that the K is likely to destroy, hold back pawns in that situation. 2) I have a positional problem, a pin, putting the K in the center is a positional issue too. Connection? 3) The K is usually the blockader, in this case, there is no other piece to use. the e pawn is the only to advance, it should be blocked. 4) the only way he can move his f pawn is with, guess what? his R, but that lets off the pin. Everything makes sense now! |
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| Dec-09-04 | | drukenknight: go back, stick in metal monster, press button and: 34..Ke5 35. Kf2 Kd4
36. Ra1 Ke5 37. Ke3 h6...etc
That should hold, agree? |
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Dec-09-04
| | beatgiant: <drukenknight>:
<go back, stick in metal monster, press button and: 34..Ke5 35. Kf2 Kd4 36. Ra1 Ke5 37. Ke3 h6...etcThat should hold, agree?>
White would play 34...♔e5 35. h4 h6 36. ♔g2 and if Black replies 36...♔d4 37. f6 , otherwise White's king advances to g4. Black is falling into zugzwang. |
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| Dec-09-04 | | drukenknight: Dream on, b.g.: 35...g4 |
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Dec-09-04
| | beatgiant: <drukenknight>:
Now I think I see your idea: 34...♔e5 35. h4 g4 36. ♔g2 ♔f4 , hoping to have some slight drawing chances after 37. f6 ♖xf6 38. ♖xa4 ♖h6 . But White can change his order too, with 34...♔e5 35. ♔g2 . If now 35...♔f4 or 35...♔d4 then 36. f6 wins, or if 35...♔f6 36. ♔g3 ♔e5 37. ♔g4 ♔f6 38. h4 h6 39. hg hg 40. ♔h5 is a typical example of the zugzwang. |
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| Dec-11-04 | | drukenknight: okay you see my pt. If you start to play with the move order you can play games. This is true too. But think about now that you are considering several different lines, that means there might be something there. The computer played 35 Kf2 there was a response, you play 35 h4 there is another response. Hmm maybe a good sign? |
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Dec-13-04
| | beatgiant: <drukenknight>:
<The computer played 35 Kf2 there was a response, you play 35 h4 there is another response. Hmm maybe a good sign?>If you mean you still hope Black could draw with 34...♔e5 , I highly doubt it. I was being extremely generous to Black when I said he has "some slight drawing chances" with 34...♔e5 35. h4 g4 36. ♔g2 ♔f4 37. f6 ♖xf6 38. ♖xa4 ♖h6 . Actually Black's little counterplay is probably not good enough. And 34...♔e5 35. ♔g2 prevents even this slim chance. Moreover, the move 34...♔e5 35. ♔f2 found by your computer is just a slight variation of the same idea I already posted, so that if 35...♔d4 36. ♔g3 ♔c3 37. f6 and wins the bishop, because 37...♔b3 38. f7 ♖f6 39. ♖f2 wins. The point is that if Black's king ever runs too far, White can always push f6 and win at least the bishop. I have not seen anything whatsoever to change this opinion. |
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| Dec-14-04 | | drukenknight: 34...e5 35. Kg2 is the line you want to play now? bg. just let me know what you think is the best move for white and I will see what I can do. ps. It really helps discussion if you discuss only one line at a time. we can always go back and do other lines, it just gets really confusing. Just a suggestion, but I have found it really really helps discussions. |
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Dec-14-04
| | beatgiant: <drukenknight>:
<34...e5 35. Kg2 is the line you want to play now? bg. just let me know what you think is the best move for white and I will see what I can do.>As I said, it looks like several moves win, so it's up to you which line you want to analyze first. But the easiest thing would be for you to study 34...♔e4 35. ♔f2 (the move you discovered with your computer) and simply play it out with your computer all the way to the end. You can take Black and try whatever strategy you want. Although computers aren't known for great endgame technique, I'd be really surprised if your computer can't win this one. |
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| Dec-14-04 | | drukenknight: I guess you dont want to play it then. |
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Dec-14-04
| | beatgiant: <drukenknight>:
<I guess you dont want to play it then.>But I thought it was you who wanted to prove Black can draw with 34...♔e4 . If you have good evidence of this, the forum will welcome it. I've posted my lines already. |
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| Dec-14-04 | | drukenknight: the suggestion is 34...Ke5; not 34...Ke4 not 34...e4. just thought I'd mention this for anyone coming late. |
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| Dec-14-04 | | drukenknight: it does look lost for black though, there is now way to stop f6 which loses the B as bg has said. |
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| Nov-14-07 | | notyetagm: Position after 29 ... ♖d6-a6:
click for larger viewHere Alekhine (Black) plans to release the <PIN> on the Black a4-bishop with 30 ... ♗a4-b5, <PIN-BREAKING BY DISCOVERY>. But Euwe (White) does not allow that.
Euwe played the crushing 30 ♖a1-a2!! (Kasparov).
Position after 30 ♖a1-a2!!:
click for larger viewNow the attempt to release the <PIN> on the a-file by 30 ... ♗a4-b5?? simply drops a piece to 31 c4xb5, unmasking the White d5-bishop to <DEFEND> the White a2-rook. (VAR) Position after 30 ... ♗a4-b5?? 31 c4xb5:
click for larger viewSince 30 ... ♗a4-b5?? now drops a piece, Black has no way to escape the <PIN>. And since the Black a4-bishop is also <LOOSE>, Black's pieces are in a state of <ZUGZWANG>: moving the a4-bishop drops a piece or the a6-rook, while moving the a6-rook off of the a-file drops the a4-bishop. With his pieces paralyzed by the deadly <PIN> on the a-file, Alekhine is powerless to resist and loses. |
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| Mar-16-08 | | Knight13: 29...Ra6 sucks, dude. |
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| Dec-29-16 | | Saniyat24: lot to learn from the kibitzing between beatgiant and drunkenknight....! |
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| Oct-09-21 | | Messiah: 30.Ra2!! is a beautiful move, I really enjoy it. |
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| Jan-19-22 | | N.O.F. NAJDORF: I too.
But is it really that difficult to spot?
I think it's harder to spot the preparatory moves 27.c4
and
28.Bd5+ |
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