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| Jan-16-10 | | gofer: Given the actual solution, I would be interested to see quite how much an advantage white has.
Can someone with a decent chess program tell me the "point count" for white between 16 Qxc8 Rxc8 17 Rd7 ...
and the game as it was actually played after
23 Qxe5 ...
The reason I ask is that I think 17 ... Bh6 (as some proposed) leaves Bh6 stuck out in the middle of nowhere and
weakens Pe7 after Kf2. The alternative leaves a huge marauding set of pawns to deal with by K + R.... |
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| Jan-16-10 | | David2009: <VincentL: I would not fancy my chances aginst Crafty (starting at one of <David2009>´s links) playing white from move 19 onwards.
I can see that one rook can easily be won - but after that?> I'm flattered by the reference before I have even posted the link.
For the dedicated enthusiasts here is the link. Crafty defending as Black follows the game
until move 23 then plays 23...Re8 instead of 23...Rc8.
click for larger view Gipslis v Hracek 1991 16?
http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...
You are white, drag and drop the move you want to make. Best of luck! |
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| Jan-16-10 | | johnlspouge: Saturday (Very Difficult)
Gipslis vs Hracek, 1991 (16.?) White to play and win.
Material: N for B. The Black Kf7 has 2 legal moves and is vulnerable to checks from Qc6. The White Rf1 pins Pf6 to Kf7, so Pe5 is unprotected. White has a huge lead in development, which he must exploit or lose. The candidate 16.Rxf6+ is attractive, because the acceptance 16…exf6 opens the 7-th rank for the invasion 17.Rd7+. The White Kg1 is secured from check. Candidates (16.): Rxf6+
16.Rxf6+ exf6 [else, drop a P in a horrible position] 17.Rd7+ Be7 [Kg8 18.Qe6#]
Candidates (18.): Rxe7+, Qd5+, Rc7
[18.Rxe7+ Kxe7 19.Nd5+ Kd8 20.<Qxf6+> [snip] and Black escapes] Indeed, Black escapes, but I missed 20.Qd6+, pulling Qc8 from protection of Rh8. Instead of 18.Rxe7+, I went for 18.Qd5+, which loses. |
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| Jan-16-10 | | johnlspouge: On 19 plies, Toga evaluates the game variation (best play up to but not including move 24.) at 1.36 P. <dzechiel> suggested 17…Qxd7 as an alternative defense, attempting a defense with 2Rs vs Q, but the defense clearly loses, as follows: 16.Rxf6+ exf6 [else, drop a P in a horrible position] 17.Rd7+
(1) 17…Qxd7 [Kg8 18.Qe6#]
18.Qxd7+ Be7 [Kg8 19.Qd5 forks Ra8]
19.Nd5 Rhe8 [Rae8 20.Qxa7, and White wins on the Q-side] 20.Nc7, and White wins R for N
(2) game variation |
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| Jan-16-10 | | agb2002: White has a knight for a bishop. Black threatens 16... Qxc6. The position of the black king and the lack of development suggest a direct attack with 16.Rxf6+: A) 16... exf6 17.Rd7+
A.1) 17... Kg8 18.Qe6#.
A.2) 17... Ke8 18.Qe6+ Be7 19.Qxe7#.
A.3) 17... Qxd7+ 18.Qxd7+ Be7 (18... Kg8 19.Qd5+ Kg7 20.Qxa8 + - [Q+N+P vs R+B]) 19.Nd5 Rae8 (19... Rhe8 20.Nc7 Red8 21.Qe6+ Kf8 22.Nxa8 + - [Q+P vs R+B]) 20.Nc7 Nd8 21.Qe6+ Kf8 22.Nd5 Re8 23.Nxf6 Bxf6 (23... Rd8 24.Nd7+ Ke8 25.Nxe5 + -) 24.Qxf6+ Kg8 25.c4 + - [Q+2P vs 2R]. A.4) 17... Be7 18.Rxe7+ Kxe7 (18... Kf8 19.Qxf6+ Kg8 20.Qg7#; 18... Kg8 19.Qd5+ Kf8 20.Qf7#) 19.Nd5+ Kd8 (19... Kf7(8) 20.Qxf6+ and mate next) 20.Qd6+ (20.Qf6+ Kd7 21.Qe7+ Kc6 22.Nb4+ Kb5 23.b3 Re8 and the black king escapes) Qd7 (20... Ke8 21.Qe7#) 21.Qxf6+ Kc8 (21... Ke8 22.Qxh8+ Kf7 23.Qxa8 + - [N+2P]) 22.Qxh8+ Kb7 (or 22... Qd8) 23.Qxe5 and White has three pawns for the exchange and the black king is not safe yet. B) 16... Kg8 17.Qd5+ Kg7 (17... e6 18.Rxe6 threatening 19.Rxg6#) 18.Qf7+ Kh6 19.Rf3 (threatens 20.Rh3+ Kg5 21.Ne4+ Kg4 22.Qf3#) Qc6 20.Rh3+ Kg5 21.Rd5 with the double threat 22.Rxe5+ and 22.Ne4+. C) 16... Kg7 17.Re6 Qxc6 18.Rxc6 and White should win the endgame by taking advantage of the weak pawns on a7, e5 and e7. |
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| Jan-16-10 | | TheChessGuy: That is a magnificent attack that Ģipslis cooks up! |
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| Jan-16-10 | | bengalcat47: One has to admire Gipslis' play in the endgame, since Queen and Pawn endings are very difficult to play. Unlike most examples of such an endgame, here the white king is secure
from checks and the black queen can only play a defensive role. |
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Jan-16-10
 | | Jimfromprovidence: Missed this one. I lost the thread after move 19.
Notice how black loses immediately after 53...Kc7, but after 53...Kc6, instead, black still has some fight left in him.
click for larger viewNow, he might get a chance to exchange his a pawn for white’s e pawn. |
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| Jan-16-10 | | butilikefur: <16. Rxf6+ exf6> 16...Kg7 17. Qxc8 Rxc8 18. Ra6 Rc7 19. Rd5 Rb7 20. Rb5 is a winning endgame <17. Rd7+ Be7 18. Qd6> 18. Rxe7+ Kxe7 19. Nd5+ Kd8 20. Qd6+ (20. Qxf6+ Kd7 21. Qe7+ Kc6 22. Qxe5 Re8 23. Nb4+ Kb6 24. Qd6+ Kb7 [24...Kb5 25. h4+ Kxh4 (also 24...Kc4 25. Na2 or 24...Ka5 25. Nc6+) 26. b3+ Ka3 27. Nd3+ Ka2 28. Qf6 Qxc2 29. Qa6+ mate ..or if you like endgames 29. Nb4+] 25. Qa6+ Kc7 and Black can probably avoid perpetual) 20...Qd7 21. Qxf6+ Kc8 22. Qxh8+ Kb7 23. Qxe5 Re8 24. Qd4 and White is up a pawn <18...Qd8> 18...Re8 19. Nd5 Qxd7 20. Qxd7 Rad8 21. Qb4 also wins <19. Qd5+ Kf8 20. Rxd8+ Rxd8 21. Qe6> and White is better |
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| Jan-16-10 | | remolino: The problems have gotten much more interesting because answers are
not forced all the way to mate and result in interesting
position evaluations.
Kudos to CG. |
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| Jan-16-10 | | donehung: Very nice! |
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| Jan-16-10 | | DarthStapler: I got the first two moves but I missed the Be7 defense |
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| Jan-16-10 | | cyclon: <TheChessGuy:> <bengalcat47:> I also share the view, that Gipslis played this game astoundingly. By the way, as pointed out by <gofer:>, 16 Qxc8 Rxc8 17 Rd7 gives White good endgame, but I wouldn`t go as far as saying that it already wins. |
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Jan-16-10
 | | doubledrooks: I saw the game continuation from 16. Rxf6+ through 23. Qxe5, but with a knight and three extra pawns (none of them very advanced) for the rook, I wasn't sure white had a winning advantage. |
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| Jan-16-10 | | wals: Rybka 3 1cpu 3071mb hash followed the text moves from 16.Rxf6 to 26.Qe7+ then preferred 26...Kb8 (+ 1.05) to
the text Ka8 (+1.59).
1.  (1.05): 26...Kb8 27.Qd6+ Kb7 28.Qd7+ Kb8[] 29.Nb4 Qa5 30.Nc6+ Rxc6 31.Qxc6 Qa1+[] 32.Kh2 Qxb2 33.Qd6+ Ka8 34.Qd4 Qb8+ 35.Kg1 Qb1+ 36.Kf2[] Qf5+ 37.Ke2 Kb7 38.e4 Qh5+ 39.Kf1 a5 40.Qd7+ Kb6 41.Qd6+ Kb7 2.  (1.59): 26...Ka8 27.Nc7+ Rxc7 28.Qxc7 Qxb2 29.Qc8+ Qb8[] 30.Qxb8+ Kxb8[] 31.Kf2 Kc7 32.c4 Kc6 33.Ke2 Kc5 34.Kd3[] Kc6 (, 17.01.2010) |
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| Jan-16-10 | | Patriot: I saw the line: 16.Rxf6+ exf6 17.Rd7+ Be7 18.Qd6.
Why 18.Qd6? I looked briefly at 18.Rxe7+ and thought white's attack would soon fizzle with little material to bank on. But this line convinced me that white should be winning so the original candidate 16.Rxf6+ looks winning. A) 18...Qxd7 19.Qxd7
B) 18...Qe8 19.Nd5
C) 18...Re8 19.Nd5
D) 18...Qd8 19.Nd5 Re8 20.Qxf6+ Kg8 21.Nxe7+ Rxe7 22.Rxd8+ Rxd8 23.Qxe7 |
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| Jan-16-10 | | VincentL: <David 2009>I played from move 16 against Crafty, and after some simplification reached the following position:
click for larger viewI think this should be winning for white.
I subsequently blundered and lost, but am left more convinced than previously that the original 16. Rxf6+ does indeed bring home the full point. |
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| Jan-16-10 | | Marmot PFL: Some tactical elements here are the disconnected black rooks, check for white's queen, and white rook on same file as black's king. However white's own queen is under attack. The forcing line 16 Rxf6+ ef6 17 Rd7+ Be7 18 Rxe7+ Kex7 19 Nd5+ is tempting as black will lose pf6 as well as Rh8, but I would not call it a clear win. As far as the opening goes, I have played this line with black and recommend 9...e6, allowing the queen to defend f7 and avoiding the awkward f6 move. |
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| Jan-16-10 | | Bobsterman3000: So, after 11...f6 the next 43 moves are basically forced for black - that's got to be a record :-) |
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| Jan-16-10 | | Dr. J: <<RandomVisitor> Rybka 3: <[+1.03] d=22 16.Rxf6+> exf6 17.Rd7+ Be7 18.Rxe7+ Kxe7 19.Nd5+ Kd8 20.Qd6+ Qd7 21.Qxf6+ Kc8 22.Qxh8+ Kb7 23.Qxe5 Rc8 and now Rybka varies from the game: 24.Qe4 Qc6 25.c3 Qc4 26.Qe7+ Ka8 27.Qe6 Kb8 28.Qd6+> Interesting: with N+3P for R, White evaluates at only +1.03 - in effect, White has no positional advantage, only his material advantage. Like <dzechiel> and others, I am unconvinced. Surely many improvements can be found in the endgame after Move 23 (33 ... Rxc6 perhaps?) so the game result proves little. |
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| Jan-16-10 | | Dr. J: <agb2002: 16.Rxf6+:
A) 16... exf6 17.Rd7+
A.3) 17... Qxd7+ 18.Qxd7+ Be7 19.Nd5 Rae8 20.Nc7 Nd8(sic. He means Rd8) 21.Qe6+ Kf8 22.Nd5 Re8 23.Nxf6 Bxf6 (23... Rd8 24.Nd7+ Ke8 25.Nxe5 + -) 24.Qxf6+ Kg8 25.c4 + - [Q+2P vs 2R].> Some improvements after 20 Nc7:
<20 ... Rd8 21 Nd5 Re8> 22 Nxe7 wins a whole rook. Instead, Black must give R for N via 21 ... Rxd5 20 ... Rb8 (Surprisingly, this actually seems best. Not 20 ... Ref8? 21 Qe6+ nor 20 ... Reg8? 21 Qe6+ Kf8 22 Nd5 Bc5 23 Qc8+ or 22... Bd8 23 Qd7) 21 Qe6+ Kf8 22 Nd5 Bc5 (... Bd8?? 23 Qd6+) 23 Qxf6+ Kg8 24 Qxe5. Or else Black can just let White capture on e8. But any of these continuations seem to me to be worse for Black than the game continuation. <RV> is this correct? |
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| Jan-17-10 | | zenpharaohs: I went for 16 Qd5+.
Rybka 3 has little objection to the game line all the way to 26 e7; valuing that position at +0.87 at depth 17 plies. If we follow the alternative line
16 Qd5+
I expected 16 ... e6 but Rybka 3 finds that only second best, preferring: 16 Kg7
17 Na4 Rg8
which Rybka values at +0.58 at depth of 20 plies. |
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| Jan-17-10 | | VargPOD: Saturday.
I saw 16.Rxf6+ exf6 17.Rd7+ Be7 but made not headway, because could not see a mating continuation after 18.Rxe7+ Kxe7 19.Nd5+ and white is heavily down on material. Should have calculated further. No point. Total 4/6, 7,5/13. |
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| Jan-19-10 | | Dr. J: Correcting my previous post:
<16.Rxf6+ exf6 17.Rd7+ Qxd7 18.Qxd7+ Be7 19.Nd5 Rae8 20.Nc7 <Rb8?> 21 Qe6+ Kf8 22 Nd5 Bc5> 23 b4 wins a piece. |
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Jan-27-10
 | | LIFE Master AJ: I briefly ran through this with Fritz 11. The computer predicted the entire line, however, it did NOT give it as decisive, but rather as a "plus-over-a-line," (" "); meaning that it was NOT clearly winning ... I read all the other posts. Good job, guys, you obviously spent a lot of time dissecting this one. |
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Kibitzing
sac: 16.Rxf6+