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Dec-23-01
 | | Sneaky: Is this combination sound? I think there might be an improvement to 20. Qe2. E.g., what about 20 Qg2? My chess computer finds the line 20 ...Bxd4+ 21. Kh1 Rd2!? 22. Qxd2 Be4+, winning the Queen--but that might not be enough to for Black to win.
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| Mar-15-03 | | ughaibu: Sneaky: How about 21....Ne5 22.Bd5 Ng4? I'm not sure that this is really a combination, perhaps it's one of Tal's sacrifices. |
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| Jul-04-03 | | Benjamin Lau: I like the annotations. :-) |
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| Jul-04-03 | | clocked: 20.Qg2 Bxd4+ 21.Kh1 Ne5 22.Bd5? c6 
doesn't help white nor does
20.Qf4 Bxd4+ 21.Kf1 Be3 22.Qh4 Kg7 23.g4 Rd4 24.Qg3 Bd3+ 25.Kg2 Bf4
it seems to be sound |
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| Jul-04-03 | | kevin86: A real good game-with a queen sacrifice and all. However,i would have liked to see an American on this day 7/4-and an English Opening! ARGGHHH!
Just kidding |
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| Jul-04-03 | | drukenknight: tell me again why not 26 Kg2? |
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| Jul-04-03 | | steve alford: My guess is that white was running out of time, because there was NO GOOD REASON to resign. Kg2 is NOT a losing move. If Tal responds with Re3, threatening the queen... GOOD FOR TAL, but who cares... he still loses. The only reason for white to resign here is if Tal had a HUGE lead on the clock and white was almost out of time. I'd be willing to bet that if you looked it up... that's probably what happened. After all, even though Tal can take the white bishop at his leizure, whenever he does, white will take the black dark-squared bishop and still be ahead a queen to a bishop, a knight, and a pawn... with decent position and king safety to boot. Bottom line, white was running out of time and resigned or possibly ran out of time altogether. |
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| Jul-04-03 | | Shadout Mapes: 26.Kg2 Rf2+ 27.Qxf2 Bxf2 28.Kxf2 Nxf7 and black is clearly winning, right? |
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| Jul-04-03 | | kevin86: Black would have the advantage after the exchanges of bishop+ knight+ pawn vs rook,not to mention a grandmaster/world champion with black. |
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| Oct-28-03 | | Jack21221: Steve Alford, after Kg2, you play Rf2+, not Rf3, just like it says in the notes. See the line Shadout Mapes points out... Tal will be up a knight, bishop, and a pawn against the rook. And you cannot just exchange the rook for a few pawns and hope Tal doens't know the KNB vs K ending. :p Either way, being down that much against Tal is a perfect reason to resign. |
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| Oct-28-03 | | drukenknight: >>Tal will be up a knight, bishop, and a pawn against the rook. That is 7 pts vs 6 pts. We see material differential like this every day. Literally nearly every game has this sort of dynamic in it. IF chess was not savable when down by a pawn, then there would be few games on this site that did not end quickly in victory. In fact white would probably have a huge winning % >>>And you cannot just exchange the rook for a few pawns .... Why on earth would you exchange when you are down in material?? You have selected probably the worst plan for anybody that is down in material in a game. Sure you have to consider everything, but just as a general rule, this is not the way. So you create a straw man and knock it down.
>>>Either way, being down that much against Tal is a perfect reason to resign. It's exactly the WRONG REASON to resign. Really you should give up chess if you feel you should resign against a stronger player. YOu might as well immediately resign as black then. Why would people anybody play in simuls? Why in fact would anybody record the moves to a simul? WHy in fact are we arguing the merits of a simul. if obviously the guy is 1400 pts lower than Tal so he is obviously playing bad moves. |
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| Oct-28-03 | | Shadout Mapes: You consider the rook 6 points, dk? |
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| Oct-28-03 | | drukenknight: Is the light squared one worth more than the dark or vice versa? I forget. |
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| Oct-28-03 | | Jack21221: Drukenknight, That is seven points vs five points. The bishop and pawn vs the rook should be about drawn... Throw in the knight and it is all over. It would be pointless to keep fighting, hoping that Tal will blunder, because he won't. Being down that far in material in the endgame against a Grandmaster is a sure loss. Also, I was joking about a tactic I have used in a few internet games. If I were down, and they had a bishop and knight, I would exchange down until they only had the bishop, knight, and king. You would be suprised at the amount of people that do not know that mate. Lay off the Jack Daniels, drukenknight, and learn how to count. By the way, everybody knows that the light squared rook is worth more than the dark squared rook. *rolls his eyes* |
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| Oct-29-03 | | drukenknight: perhaps I am guilty of not being able to count but your are guilty of not being logical. If 2 pts of material is enuf for a win, why didnt Tal give up? He was down 2-3 pts of material from move 19 on. Did ALbero have a won game? |
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| Oct-29-03 | | drukenknight: Okay after: 26.Kg2 Rf2+ 27.Qxf2 Bxf2 28.Kxf2 Nxf7 29 Rd5 SHOW ME YOUR WINNING LINE. |
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| Oct-29-03 | | crafty: 26. ♔g2 ♖f2+ 27. ♕xf2 ♗xf2 28. ♗xg6 ♗g4 (eval -4.03; depth 17 ply; 750M nodes) |
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| Oct-29-03 | | Jack21221: Drukenknight, the "Winning line" will likely be 30 moves long. I never said that black has an immediate checkmate. Perhaps you need to take a course in logic at your local community college. The so-called "point count" of material is not the only imbalance in the game. When Tal was down material, he had a firm grasp on the initiative, which lead to a net gain of material. While no "winning line" as such exists, black has a decisive advantage. You seem to be the only person that thinks white even has drawing chances. Tal would have to make a horrible blunder to lose. To answer your question, I would play either 29...Ne5 or 29...Ng5. White has no real play to make up for the material deficit. Black's pieces are doing just fine, and as soon as Black's king starts moving up the board, white will be even worse off. No, I do not have time to run through every single possible move for 20-30 moves through checkmate to find the best 29th move for black. Black has several halfway-decent candidate moves... Ne5, Ng5, Kg2, and Bb1 all come to mind. By the way, crafty says 28. Bxg6 is better than 28. Kxf2, and evaluates it as 4 points in favor of black. Would you play on and just hope Tal blunders 4 points of advantage? |
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| Oct-29-03 | | drukenknight: Here is your misplaced logic:
I cannot remember any winning line that was 30 moves long. Most winning lines are obviously winning in much shorter time than that. I have never argued/for or against a winning line that was ever that long just to drag things out. 2. We have seen plenty of B endings where one side was up 3 or 4 pts of material but impossible to win. There is a B involved here and the possibilty of RxN would also be important threat to create that. You have stated no facts that dispute this, only something about iniative and Tal is really good. Whatever. |
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| Oct-29-03 | | drukenknight: >>>No, I do not have time to run through every single possible move for 20-30 moves through checkmate to find the best 29th move for black. Here I took the trouble, care to show a win here? or to improve the line? 27. Qxf2 Bxf2
28. Kxf2 Nxf7
29. b3 Ne5
30. h4 Kg7
31. Ke3 Kf6
32. Rd5 Ke6
33. Rb5 b6
34. Rd5 c6
35. Rd1 d5
36. Kf4 h5
37. a3 Nd3+
38. Ke3 Nc5
39. cxd5+ cxd5
40. b4 Ne4
41. Kf4 Nc3
42. Re1+ Kd6
43. Re8 d4
44. Rd8+ Kc7
45. Rxd4 Ne2+
46. Ke5 Nxd4
47. Kxd4 Kd6 |
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| Oct-30-03 | | Jack21221: Having the initiative is not a fact? Perhaps you need to play over the game again. When Tal was down a queen, he had active piece play against white's king, which lead to the gain of material. I find it hard to debate somebody that looks at a fact and says "That is not a fact." Second, when I used the words "winning line" I was being tongue-in-cheek. Notice the quotation marks. And later, I said "While no 'winning line' as such exists..." So you cannot comprehend english, either, in addition to not being able to count. You want improvements? First, try 28. Bxg6. Also, 32...Be6 instead of Ke6. 34...Bb1, so you don't weaken your d6 pawn. 36...h6 instead of h5. 38...dxc4, isolating white's a and c pawns. And in your final position, you don't think this is a win for black? Pick up an endgame book. If you think that a world champion will throw away a textbook won endgame, you need some mental help. You had white really screwing up by sacrificing his rook for knight and pawn. |
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| Oct-30-03 | | ughaibu: I'm interested that Tal chose 19.....Rd3 not Bd4 which I'm sure I would have preferred. |
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| Mar-01-04 | | Whitehat1963: I would have loved to have seen Albero's face after 18...Qxf7! His jaw probably hit the floor! |
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| Mar-01-04 | | Shadout Mapes: <ughaibu> the reason Tal played 19..Rd3 instead of 19...Bxd4 is that after 19...Bxd4 20.Kg2 Rd3 21.Qh6 is possible. By playing 19...Rd3 immiediatly, Qh6 is not possible. |
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| Mar-02-04 | | ughaibu: Thanks, that looks reasonable. |
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