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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 620 OF 1784 ·
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| Oct-12-07 | | dalbertz: Put me down in the Rb1 column. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Hugin: ongyj: <Hugin>: <Imag i have studied 12 dxc6 before and today because i was forced to stop the madness about 12 dxc6. And not one single time has white in any of those lines got nothing its more the other way around. I wont discuss that move not even once more, infact if the team goes for it i will simply leave. And congratulate Timmerman in advance with a victory by posting congratulation to him on my site. This is no ultimatum just how i feel it now, i wont waste a year and a half on a line i know stinks.> Now pardon me but if that was an attempted reversed psy or emotional blackmail, I think it backfired. Now there's a real motivation of voting 12.dxc6- and grant your wish. LOL =) Message edited, thanx <Judah>, but the gist is the same. < I do not care if it backfires i said what i meant.> |
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| Oct-12-07 | | chesstoplay: Hi < Elixir >,
Yury was sick yesterday and had virutally had no voice to speak with. He's suppose to play in the Midwest Class in Oakbrook, Illinois this weekend, but may not be healthy enough. I may not see him until Sunday at the tournament or Monday night. I'll e-mail him and ask him to look at the position, but can't predict that he'll get to it. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | kwid: Oct-12-07
Hugin - Ok this should put an end to voting on 12 dxc6... the position the diagram shows is very bad for white and up against a world champ dead lost.
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Yes, your assessment of the reached position my be correct.
But for historical record keeping I would like to add a different reply
to the Bxc6 discussion:
[Event "xxx"]
[Site "xxx"]
[Date "xxx"]
[Round "x"]
[White "ROW"]
[Black "GJT"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A88"]
[Annotator "KW"]
[PlyCount "43"]
[EventDate "2007.08.09"]
1. d4 f5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 g6 4. c4 Bg7 5. Nc3 O-O 6. Nf3 d6 7. O-O c6 8. Qb3
Na6 9. Rd1 Kh8 10. Qa3 Nc7 11. d5 Bd7 12. dxc6 Bxc6 13. c5 d5 14. Bf4 Ne6 15.
Be5 Qd7 (15... Ne4 16. b4) (15... Ng4 16. Bxg7+ Kxg7 17. b4) 16. b4 Rad8 17.
Qb3 a6 (17... b5 18. a4 bxa4 19. Nxa4 Qb7 20. Nd4 Nxd4 21. Bxd4 Ne4 22. Qb2
Bxd4 23. Qxd4+) 18. Rd3 Ng4 19. Bxg7+ Nxg7 20. h3 Nf6 21. a4 Ne6 22. Rad1
1-0
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| Oct-12-07 | | acirce: <Even the people who like dxc6 don't see strong chances of its yielding a win. Why does it have so many votes?> You can probably substitute any move for dxc6 here. We don't have big winning chances no matter what we play - the position is already equal or very close to - but we have to play something. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Plato: <Judah: Even the people who like dxc6 don't see strong chances of its yielding a win. Why does it have so many votes?> It doesn't offer less winning chances than 12.Be3, for example, which I advocated earlier. Black is very near equality already, and I believe White's early queen adventures were a bit misguided, so it's not surprising that most lines aren't yielding great winning chances (of course, "perfect" chess should be a draw anyway...). One can't force a win out of nowhere. It's possible that as the game goes on, however, new opportunities will arise. I don't know if you followed my comments until now, but I was opposing 12.dxc6 as much as anyone, for positional reasons primarily. However, the computer lines are leading to more imbalanced positions that seem slightly better than the ones arising from other moves, in my opinion. And to say that it doesn't offer serious winning chances is no real knock to it, here, as no move does IMO. I think it does succeed to complicate the position more than other moves, which in itself might be seen as an advantage. In many lines we get an outside past pawn (the a-pawn), which, with the bishops aiming at the queenside, can be force to be reckoned with. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | ganstaman: <oxxo: What's the idea behind Be3 <[my edit]> here? Threatening the a pawn maybe? I think it's only popular because Fritz or Rybka suggested it after many hours of calculation but there is no logical or seemingly comprehensible reason for it to be considered a good move. Blind faith in machinery.. It moves the bishop to a square where it blocks white pawn, can immediately be attacked by Ng4 and does nothing by means of attacking black or setting up a favorable position. I strongly suggest all you Be3 voters out there to please reconsider..> You sound like you know a lot about chess, so I guess you already know that in Leningrad Dutch positions, white very often plays Be3 at some point. Blocking the e-pawn isn't much of a concern since we aren't going to be able to move it much anyway. Someone posted somewhere some time ago that it's a beginner's (I use the word beginner very loosely, should be "non-professional" or "non-master" probably?) mistake to think that every move must carry a tangible threat. Sometimes, you need to make moves that simply strengthen your position, or give your pieces a bit more room, or bolster up a few squares. All that being said, I'm much more impressed with <12. Rb1> than any other move right now. It seems that no one is very sure what really is best, and this surely can't be bad. It moves the rook off the a1-h8 diagonal and gets it behind a pawn we plan on pushing eventually. It will get played within the next 5 moves most likely anyway, so since we are unsure, it is clearly a great choice. Put me down for 12.Rb1, if the tallying is still going on. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | zanshin: <chesstoplay: I'll e-mail him and ask him to look at the position, but can't predict that he'll get to it.> <Peter> Please don't. There are too many problems with asking for input from a GM. For starters, I don't think the rules allow advice from people not on the Team. Then there's the ethical issue of soliciting outside help from such a strong player. And finally, don't we want to win, lose or draw on our own? If Yury gave us <great> advice that improved our play, doesn't that detract from the game? |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Waitaka: Ok <Elixir of life>, you made Rb1 win one more vote, at least for now. I will keep thinking and reading. Thank you. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | RookFile: Friends, let's not forget Plato, who is kind of new here. I'm 2100, he's like 2250, and I'll testify to that. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Plato: Thanks <RF> :) |
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| Oct-12-07 | | imag: <kwid><Hugin>
I wish people would analyze lines carefully before making definite statements. I repeat once more: 12.dxc6 Bxc6 <13.b4> not c5! So, before discarding the whole 12.dxc6 line please analyze that. If it helps I can post this analysis one more time: <12...Bxc6
Now 14.c5 d5 leads to a position which I don't like. I prefer: 13.b4
click for larger viewAnalysis by Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit : 20 ply
1. (0.28): 13...Ne6 14.c5 Ne4 15.Bb2 Qe8 16.cxd6 exd6 17.Nxe4 fxe4 18.Bxg7+ Kxg7 19.Qb2+ Rf6 20.Ne1 2. (0.34): 13...Qe8 14.Bb2 Ne6 15.Nd5 a6 16.Rac1 Rc8 17.Nb6 Rd8 18.Qb3 Ne4 19.Bxg7+ Kxg7 20.c5 3. (0.34): 13...a6 14.Bb2 Qe8 15.Rac1 Ne6 16.Nd5 Rc8 17.Nb6 Rd8 18.Qb3 Ne4 19.Bxg7+ Kxg7 20.c5 13...Ne6 14.c5
Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit :
1. (0.26): 14...Qe8 15.cxd6 exd6 16.Bb2 Ne4 17.Nxe4 fxe4 18.Bxg7+ Kxg7 19.Qb2+ Rf6 20.Ne1 Rd8 21.Nc2 2. (0.28): 14...Ne8 15.Ng5 Qd7 16.Rb1 Bxg2 17.Kxg2 Qc6+ 18.f3 dxc5 19.Nxe6 cxb4 20.Rxb4 Qxe6 21.Rxb7 3. (0.35): 14...Qc7 15.cxd6 exd6 16.b5 Bxf3 17.exf3 d5 18.Bb2 Rfd8 19.Na4 Qd7 20.Re1 Rac8 21.Rad1 4. (0.39): 14...Ne4 15.Bb2 Qe8 16.Nxe4 fxe4 17.Bxg7+ Kxg7 18.Qb2+ Kg8 19.Nd4 Nxd4 20.Qxd4 dxc5 21.Qxc5 The first line is not a problem, White should be able to win because of Black's isolated pawn. So I ran engine match to see what happens in the second line. Rybka - Rybka match starting from 21.Rxb7 Nd6 22.Qb3 Qxb3 [White "Rybka 2.3.1 32-bit"]
[Black "Rybka 2.3.2a 32-bit"]
23. Rxb3 Rac8 24. Nd5 Rc2 25. Bg5 Rxe2+ 26. Kf1 Re6 27. Nc7 Re5 28. Ra3 Nc4 29. Rxa7 h6 30. Bf4 Re3 31. Kf2 Rc3 32. Ne6 Rc2+ 33. Kg1 Re8 34. Rc1 Rxc1+ 35. Bxc1 Rb8 36. Bf4 Rb1+ 37. Kg2 Rb2+ 38. Kh3 Bf6 39. Bxh6 Ne5 40. Ra3 Kh7 41. Bf4 *> |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Waitaka: BTW, I realized that there was not Rb1 that I didn't like, but the dificulty to play Rb1 + b3 + Bb2, a sequence that I am used to play. The difficult is that sequence would block our Queen. So, I diacarded the Rb1 move, instead of discard the full sequence. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | chesstoplay: Hi < zanshin >... Per your message: "<Peter> Please don't". --- Okay, I won't. Re: this idea from < Elixir of Life > and my answer. Elixir of Life: <chesstoplay> Hey, perhaps you can show this position to GM Yury Shulman. Maybe he can give us some positional ideas. <chesstoplay: I'll e-mail him (Yury) and ask him to look at the position, but can't predict that he'll get to it.> A request for positional ideas and not a move seemed okay. Entry into middlegame is my weakest point in chess.
And I'm always looking to further my chess education. But, Yury is highly ethical and if he saw an amazing move or tactic, he'd just smile and tell me to look at the board longer. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | kwid: Oct-12-07
chesstoplay
_______________________________________
As per your posted computer lines it seems to me we are being lead into
difficulties. Please do correct me if i am wrong with my assessment,
it may cause a switch in voting.
11... Bd7 12. Be3 a5 13. Rab1 c5 14. Bg5 b5 15.cxb5 Nxb5 16. Nxb5 Bxb5 17. Bd2 Qb6 18. Ng5 (18. h3 Ne4) 18... Bxe2 19. Re1 Bc4 20. Rxe7 Bxd5 21. Rbe1 Bxg2 22. Kxg2 Qc6+ 23. f3 Rfe8 24. Qd3 Rxe7 25. Rxe7 Re8
26. Qe2 Qd7 27. Rxe8+ Qxe8
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| Oct-12-07 | | oxxo: <Waitaka: BTW, I realized that there was not Rb1 that I didn't like, but the dificulty to play Rb1 + b3 + Bb2, a sequence that I am used to play. The difficult is that sequence would block our Queen. So, I diacarded the Rb1 move, instead of discard the full sequence.>
what about Rb1 + b4 + Bb2? |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Hugin: 12.Be3 (77 votes)
12.dxc6 (54 votes)
12.Rb1 (38 votes)
12.Qb3 (25 votes)
12.Bf4 (23 votes)
12.Bg5 (11 votes)
12.Ng5 (7 votes)
12.Nd4 (4 votes)
12.b4 (2 votes
A shait move like 12 dxc6 may infact force me to vote for 12 Be3 just to ensure.. or try to ensure 12 dxc6 does not win. I would like to vote for the strongest moves Bg5 Bf4 or Rb1.Does not seem like i have that option, due to the support the lame 12 dxc6 get's. |
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Oct-12-07
 | | rinus: <Elixir of Life> After THIS line <RandomVisitor: (27-ply) Update 0800 12Oct <1. (0.21): 12.Rb1> a5 13.Be3 cxd5 14.Nxd5 Ncxd5 15.cxd5 Ng4 16.Bd4 Bxd4 17.Nxd4 f4> and not<18.gxf4 Rxf4>, but <18.h3>: 18...Ne5 19.Rbc1 fxg3 20.Qxg3 Qb6 21.f4 Nf7 22.Qe3 Nh6 23.f5 g5 24.Kh2 Qxb2 25.Qxe7 Rf7 26.Qxd6 Nxf5 27.Qe5+ Kg8 28.Rc2 Qb6 29.e4 Nxd4 30.Qxd4 Fruit 2.3.1 : +0.31. Depth: 20. ♘odes: 392.1 M Surely an improvement! Still checking the rest.
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| Oct-12-07 | | izimbra: I'm voting for Rb1, but please look at
<12. Rb1 a5 13. Be3 c5>. I see less of an advantage for white than in the line that's given by RV: <12. Rb1 a5 13. Be3 cxd5>. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | benjinathan: <Plato> <kwid> <Rookfile> What do you think about Rb1? |
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| Oct-12-07 | | chesstoplay: Hi <Kurt(aka kwid)>, Please go to Randomvisitor's Forum. I just copy and paste. RV is an engineer who runs many home built high end computers and his forum offers clarity in line comparisons. Too many of our general players on the World Team do not take the time to browse the forums. To help the general voter, I usually only discuss the current move or the next move. Line complications, as you know, can be endless in CC. My Sony running Fritz 10 for 36 + hours 22 ply still prefers Be3. It is a move within Dutch theory, but several moves are equal here. The bottom line is: the game is a fighting draw agains GMT's skills. By the way, many, many players are very pleased your are here!!! Thanks for your patience and willingness to help the World Team. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | imag: I also ran two engine matches (2h for 40 moves) from this position: 12. dxc6 bxc6 13. Nd4 Qe8 14. Qa5 Ne6 15. Nxe6 Bxe6 16. Qa6 Bd7 17. Rb1 Ng4 18. h3 Ne5 
click for larger viewAlthough Rybka likes the position, one match was drawn and Black won the second one. I analyzed the games and it seems that Black's kingside attack is very strong. |
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Oct-12-07
 | | Tabanus: 21-ply 0.33 18.h3, 0.29 18.gxf4
zzzZZ |
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| Oct-12-07 | | RookFile: <benjinathan: What do you think about Rb1? > 12. Rb1. I don't think it's the best move. After something like ....a5, I'm not seeing a lot of variations where white succeeds in following up with b4. |
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| Oct-12-07 | | Elixir of Life: It's bed time in China, so I'll post one more post before I go: ♔ ATTENTION VOTERS ♔
I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO CONSIDER <Rb1> The current advantage I see in <12. Rb1>, is that it allows a large degree of flexibility.
Timmerman has been playing the opening with a mindset of not committing to anything. That is, he plays moves that does not force him to stick to a plan. Instead, he has played moves that could be theoretically followed up by a large variety of plans. That makes us almost impossible to predict his plans, and to act accordingly. For example, ...Nc7 and ...Kh8 are both moves of those kind. By playing <12. Rb1>, we are sort of forcing him to commit to something... we are forcing him to stick to a plan... we are forcing him to "show his card". At the same time, we "hide our own card" by playing <12. Rb1>. I know many people are voting for a bishop move, especially <12. Be3>. I encourage you to vote for <12. Rb1> instead. When we make a bishop move, we are commiting the bishop to that square - that is, our plans will then be determined by the position of the bishop. Not only does that make Timmerman's job much easier, because he can know our plan earlier, but it also means that if we put the bishop on the wrong square, the mistake will be for ever. Since <Rb1> occurs in almost all variations, if we play it first, it <buys us at least an EXTRA WEEK of time> to decide where to put the bishop. In contrast, if we decide to play an immediate bishop move, it means that we have less than 1 more day left to decide where to put the bishop. I think that <12. Be3>, <12. dxc6> and <12. Rb1> are all objectively the best, but as a matter of personal taste, and also in the belief that the move causes Timmerman the most trouble, I vote <12. Rb1>. |
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